New to sharpening, I've got a few questions

[Cory Lee]

I'm just learning how to sharpen a knife. I've been using the DMT Diafolds & Sharpmaker. I've gotten OK results, but would like do it right. I've gotten shaving sharp, but after looking close at the blade, pretty sure it wasn't perfectly apexed. Anyway, I've got a couple questions.

I've read about the burr and am fairly confused.
- Edge Pro Apex instructions say to do equal passes on each side until a burr is raised the full length of the blade. They also say not to lift the stone off the knife during the backstroke.
- Hapstone v7 instructions say to do one side until a burr is raised, then move to the other side. They say that you should lift the stone off the blade during the backstroke.
- Wicked Edge instructions says to use alternating side-to-side strokes so both sides of the knife are sharpened at the same time until all the marker is removed from the bevel. It then says to do one side until a burr is raised, checking after every 10 strokes. Once a full length burr is formed, switch sides. When you have successfully drawn a burr from both sides you can begin sharpening both sides simultaneously by alternating from left to right with every stroke. Also, there is no backstroke with the Wicked Edge, it only says to sharpen heel to tip.
- Lansky website says to sharpen into the blade. Not along the length or away from the blade. I assume this means to lift on the backstroke? It doesn't really mention a burr.
- I've read the burr should be big and obvious and I've also read the burr should be as small as possible, hard to detect.

I've seen videos showing all of the above. I've also read all of those on this forum. Which method is better and why?


I need to buy a set of stones. I've been using the Diafolds C->F->EF->EEF & the Sharpmaker. I had planned to buy the 8" Diasharp set, but I keep seeing the 140 Atoma with the 500 & 2000 Shapton recommended. I'm not really interested in water or oil stones right now. I'm sharpening kitchen knives, pocket knives, and hunting knives. All of my knives are standard metal. No super hard blades to sharpen. I believe in buy once cry once, but I don't want to spend money just to spend it. Is the Shapton setup better?

If I go the DMT route -
1. Which stones would I need? C, F, & EF? Or would I need the XC &/or XXC? Could I get XC and skip C?
2. Should I buy the DMT set now and add the Shapton's later on?
- - - If so, could the XXC or XC be used to lap the Shapton stones?
- - - If I need the XXC, should I buy the Atoma 140 instead to use with the Shaptons later on?
3. Are the Atoma stones better than the DMT? Should I buy all Atoma stones?
4. Will the DMT Duo Base hold the Shapton & Atoma stones?

If I went with the Shapton stones, how would the Atoma 140 be used? Lapping stone only, before the 500 stone, or only on damaged blades?

I'm sure all of this info has been covered multiple times, but not all of the info I've read has been consistent & I haven't seen these stones directly compared. Thanks for your input.

 

[wade7575]

I have 2 Tsprof's and I just use push pull strokes until a burr is raised and then flip it over and raise a burr on the other side,the what edge pro might mean by doing equal pass's on each side is the way I do it by keeping track of how many times you've gone down the length of the blade.

I also just use straight push pull strokes and do about 3 up and 3 down in the same spot and move over a bit and keep on going that way until I'm at the end of the blade and then check with my finger nail to see if a burr has been raised.Another thing to consider is that a lot of the Powdered Metal's or Super Steels do not always raise a burr very easily if much at all and if that's the case where I'm not getting much of a burr raised I'll make sure to do a few extra pass's if I'm setting the bevel for the first time just to be sure I Apexed the edge fully.

Also be careful using to coarse of a stone like a Venev 60 or the lowest grit stone you could in a Metallic Bonded Diamond or CBN because I have seen some people try and Apex the edge with those type's of stones and the problem is once you have started to form the tip of the edge with a really coarse stone like that you can also tear the tip of the edge apart very easily and more so with diamonds and CBN if their grit is low enough I did it myself once without even thinking and forgetting what stone I was using and how fast they cut.

If I were you I'd go with the Venev stones they will last longer then the DMT's and if I were going to use diamond plates I'd get the Atoma's any day over the DMT's they tend to last longer and if you want full length Atoma plates just go onto ebay and type in Atoma and you'll be surprised at how cheap they are.

I don't mind the shapton glass but when it boils right down to it I don't like them in comparison to other stones they are really hard because of what they use to bond them together with but at the end of the day they are still made from Aluminum Oxide,if you want a faster cutting stone get a 400 and 800 grit Chosera the 400 really takes the metal off fast without making the edge look like it was torn off with a grinder.

 

[Cory Lee]

Thanks for the reply wade7575 . Good info. I will look into the Venev Stones.

After sharpening a couple knives over the weekend I realized I will need the XC & XXC. Also, I did use push & pull strokes on both sides and had good results.

 

[bgentry]

- I've read the burr should be big and obvious and I've also read the burr should be as small as possible, hard to detect.

Forming a burr tells you that you have apexed the edge. Forming a burr down the whole length of the edge tells you the entire edge is apexed on one side. I say make an obvious burr while you are learning so you can easily detect it and be *sure* that you have done it. Personally I always form somewhat obvious burrs, as I'm not all that good at detecting them until they get bigger. Some people get really good at detecting it, even to the point of being able to see it or feel it as it forms. Ideally you'd want to form the smallest burr possible so it's easy to remove. This is why you see the varying advice.

How often to switch sides when sharpening? The idea is to do enough grinding on one side to make it worth your while, but not to make your bevel grinds asymmetrical by spending way too much time on one side. I would say something like one minute of grinding per side is a good guideline for when to switch sides.

I need to buy a set of stones. I've been using the Diafolds C->F->EF->EEF & the Sharpmaker. I had planned to buy the 8" Diasharp set, but I keep seeing the 140 Atoma with the 500 & 2000 Shapton recommended. I'm not really interested in water or oil stones right now.

If you don't want waterstones, you don't want the Shaptons. They are closer to a conventional stone because they are so hard, but they *are* waterstones.

If I go the DMT route -
1. Which stones would I need? C, F, & EF? Or would I need the XC &/or XXC? Could I get XC and skip C?

I followed the advice of a former member here and bought the 8" diasharps as: XXC, C, EF . Skipping one grit in between each. The XXC is a different stone than all the rest. It really eats steel and is excellent for setting bevels and changing bevel angles. The XXC is very tough and can take a bit of pressure during sharpening. The others can't take much pressure at all and you will rip the diamonds out of them if you use more than light pressure. Ask me how I know.

Some people really like to finish kitchen knives and EDCs with the DMT F plate as it's finish is a nice compromise of polished and toothy. I don't have that plate, but I may get one.

3. Are the Atoma stones better than the DMT? Should I buy all Atoma stones?

They are supposed to be really nice. I have never used them, nor do I own them.

Good luck and good sharpening.

Brian.

 

[jc57]

Regarding burr formation - there is a different approach depending on what you are trying to achieve. If an edge is really dull, or you are changing the bevel angle significantly, or fixing a bad factory edge, then yes, I go for a "work one side on a coarse stone until you raise a full length burr, then work the other side until you raise a full length burr" approach. Then deburr on the coarse stone using lighter, alternating passes, before moving to finer stones for edge refinement and further burr elimination.

I try to minimize or avoid additional burr formation on the finer stones because it was already apexed on the coarse stone.

If it's a knife I have previously sharpened and it just needs normal maintenance sharpening, I also try to avoid or minimize burr formation and usually start out on finer stones - I only go as coarse as I need to quickly re-establish the existing edge. If that's not working, I'll drop to a coarser stone and check for burr formation. Some steels are prone to creating a burr even when you aren't trying to. Some are not. Hardness and ductility of the steel come into play.

Use of a bright light and a magnifier (loupe or equivalent) to examine the "edge of the edge" is particularly useful when getting started, and I still do that when sharpening my kitchen knives to determine when I should move to the next finer stone, and to make sure I am sharpening all the way to the edge and not just the shoulders.

 

[wade7575]

@CoryLee Do you own a guided system I seen that you mentioned the Edge Pro and the reason I ask is this,get the Venev stones but only get the lower grit's and stop at the 800 grit and wait until they release the 1200 grit before buying that stone it's a much better stone then the 1200 they currently offer right now I have been testing 2 prototype 1200 grit Venev stone and I don't think it's going to matter witch one they go with they both seem to be winner's.

If you want my honest opinion if you have a guided system go with the Venev stones before any kind of diamond plate the Venev stones will out last them and give you better result's.

Also I have to agree with what has be said about raising a burr although with some steel's I know some people find it very hard to tell if a burr has been raised and if that's your case then just make sure to really give the edge a good going over and check it with a 20 to 30X jewelers loupe.

If you post your email address I have a really good PDF chart that convert's FEPA grit's and JIS and other grit format's that is very easy to use and I will email it to you if you want it.

 

[Cory Lee]

That was a really good answer and clears things up for me.

Right now I’ve just got the DMT Aligner. I’m wanting to learn on just a stone, but thought I might buy the hapstone later on and could use whatever stones I buy if they’re 8”

I saw last night that I can get the wicked edge for about $220 through experticity. I may consider that, but no free hand sharpening with that system.

The Venev diamonds look good and a lot of good reviews. I will probably buy those over DMT & Atoma. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Cory Lee]

wade7575
I’m on my phone and can’t find where to send you a message with my email but I will send it to you when I get to a computer.

 

[wade7575]

Ok if you do that I will send you the pd chart.

 

[Eli Chaps]

You should really be in good shape with what you have and what you're sharpening. The topic of sharpening can be more controversial than the Kennedy assassination but it doesn't need to be.

As was previously said, raise an obvious burr on one side. You'll be able to feel it and in time, see it. Before getting more stones or a system, I'd recommend a lighted loupe/magnifying glass. Something in the 10-20x range will suffice. Anyway, color your bevel and then sharpen on that side until you have a burr along the entire edge. Don't get freaked out over whether you should only go in one direction or back and forth or any of that. With what your using it isn't a big deal right now. Do what's comfortable and that YOU CAN BE CONSISTENT WITH. If you get wobbly running back up the stone, then don't do it. Lift, stroke, repeat.

Anyway, once that is done, flip the blade over and do the same on the other side. Now here it can get a little tricky as that burr will fold over really quickly and you can be tricked into thinking you raised a burr on that said almost right away. But your bevel will not be even. Some count strokes, but in the burr formation stage, I typically recommend just keeping track of time. Let's say you spent 10mins on the first side forming up the burr. Spend at least that much time on the other side. You should have a burr now on what was the first side.

At this point, just picka number and work each side of the blade for that many strokes. Say, 10. 10 strokes on this side, 10 strokes on that side, repeat. I usually do five and repeat it a few times. Then go to one stroke per side for a bit. Maybe 10-20 strokes or, if you're like me and go into some kind of redneck zen while sharpening it might be who-knows-how-many-strokes. Anyway, all the while and between each stage, feel the blade and look it over and just starting building a library of what things look and feel like. Check sharpness on paper if you want to correlate your burgeoning knowledge with cutting performance (or lack of).

Don't get wrapped up in burr size or to burr or not to burr or scratch patterns or tree-topping or any of that right now. Just learn good, consistent technique.

GO SLOW! Don't worry about reading or seeing how people say they can get a knife atom-splitting sharp in 18 seconds. GO SLOW! Speed will come but going really fast at poor technique will just leave you flustered. Don't worry about whether or not you can slice free-hanging toilet paper. If you can shave the hair on your arm, your knife is plenty sharp for any tasks you demand of it, kitchen or EDC. Anything beyond that is "just cuz" sharpening. Cools stuff for sure but nothing to even be concerned about when learning. Heck, I've been doing this for about forty years and have come full circle back to not really caring about polished edges and hair whittling.

Alright, some more controversial stuff...Strop. get a loupe, then get a strop. i recommend a suade strop with plain old green chromium oxide and then a plain leather one (or a combo strop). After sharpening, lightly strop your knives. In fact, I strop my kitchen blades way more than I use a steel for maintenance.

Also, your knife should be shaving sharp off the LOWEST grit stone you use. Don't move up until it is. Typically, and if you keep up with your blades, you don't need (or want) to get way down to the course or lower. It will raise a burr quickly for sure but you'll scratch up the blade and remove a lot of unnecessary material. I love Arkansas stones and I typically start with a hard. I'll use a soft if I have some dents or if it's pretty dull and I rarely pull out diamonds and such (steel dependent but we're talking typical type steels such as you mentioned). An XXC diamond is like a freaking belt sander. I really don't think you need something like that unless you're re-profiling or working on super dull, like no apex, knives.

I guess my overall advice would just be stick with the basics. Don't read too much and don't watch too much. It can make you crazy and make you think you're doing a terrible job when in fact you might be doing a really good job.

I have a KME and I love it but I'm a free-hander at heart and the guided system really only comes out for certain knives. I even maintain my high-carbide steels on a black Arkansas, another controversial topic.

There's a guy on YouTube called Dean O that has some very good videos on sharpening, including several on free hand sharpening. I found him researching the KME but his free hand stuff is good too. Simple and direct and he uses different types of stones in different videos.

Sharpening should be fun. Don't let it stress you out!

 

[Cory Lee]

Thank you. That sounds like solid advice.

@wase7575 - I can’t swnd PM since I’m not a paying member yet. I don’t really want to leave my email on a public board. I’m worried I’ll get spammed.

 

[wade7575]

@CoryLee email is wadenorton2007@yahoo.ca I don't check that one as much just email me at that email and just call the email pdf grit chart and I will email it to you when I check that email I check it 2 to 3 times a week.