New to the Forum and knife making! Quick question on pattern welding by folding.

R

RedRose

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Oct 15, 2016
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Hi, everyone! Soon I will be getting into knife making, something I've wanted to do for a while. And as I see it, Damascus is the best thing to make a blade from. The anesthetic is amazing. Anyways, I couldn't find the exact answer to my question with the search bar, so here I go:

Say I'm doing some pattern welding, I have to pieces of flat bar stock, I forge weld them into one bar (my billet) and start folding. If I'm reading correctly, when I fold it, I'll have to two layer and ever fold thereafter multiples the layer count by 2, IE; Fold it again, 4 layers. Then, 8 layers, 16 layers, etc.

Am I correct with this?
 
Most will start out with a stack of several layers of differing steels. For example, I just finished a bar of W's; it started as eleven layers. Six were W2 and five were 15N20. When I finished drawing that bar out to length, I cut it into four pieces and re-stacked it to create 44 layers. I continued that process to create 176 layers and then 704 layers. When I had the 704 bar drawn out, I cut it into two pieces and stacked it for a total of 1408 layers. If you are new to forging, you do not want to hot cut and fold your billet; it will be a mess of inclusions. The steel needs to be ground smooth and completely clean every time you are going to create a new forge weld.

Bob
 
I do it just about the same Bob does. Different patterns look better at different layer counts. I wouldn't say that Damascus is the best to make knives out of, but the prettiest thing to make knives out of. If you use two different steels that would each make good knives, you will get a knife that SHOULD be as good, but much more interesting. I don't think it would out preform the mono blades. There are lots of ways to mess it up though, that's part of the reason of the price increase. Look through the WIP. They are in the stickies under virtual bbq or something. So much can be learned from them.
 
Thanks, guys! Any recommendations on a good layer count? I know guys tend to hate on new guys loving 1095, but it's cheap, so I'll be using 1095 with 15N20. Hopefully it'll be a nice process and I've read 1095 makes a good blade.
 
.125x2x48 1084 is only 50 cents more per stick than 1095.
 
I make a lot of Damascus and defiantly agree with the above comments. We will skip over the entire first time knife maker lecture about the cart befor the horse. I have kinda beat that horse to death these last few days. But just know you should learn to walk befor you can run and making Damascus is a freaking race.

Ok so onto the more useful info, Use 1084, not 1095. What ever little extra change you spend on it is worth it. Match this up with 15n20 but you generally don't want it to be the same thickness as the 1084. I find that the carbon steel (1084) forges down much faster when making the Damascus then the nickel steel (15n20). So if you start with both steels being the same thickness you will und up with thin black lines and wide shiny lines in your Damascus. I make really bold corse patterns alot of time so I don't use thicker carbon steel (1084) and alot of times I prefer to have the blade end up mostly shiny with thin black lines. But you have to be cautious becaus you can all but make the black allmost disappear. So if your going high layer could you want to balance out the thickness by going thicker on your carbon (1084).

As to layer count, I'm in the boat that the more layers I start with equals less work I have to do in the long run. But I make large billets so I know I have enough steel. One thing you will quickly learn is start with a lot more steel then you think you will need because making Damascus eats steel. I usually start with about twice what I need, if I have extra good but better safe then sorry. Deffrent patterns and higher layer counts use up more steel as there is lots of cutting and grinding that you do and if your hammer work is not on par then you will be grinding away a lot of steel to remove all the hammer marks when you prep the steel to be restacked.

There is a reasion Damascus is as expensive as it is, it's a lot of work and uses a lot of steel and materials. By materials I mean grinding belts, grinding wheels, propane, and other miscellaneous things around the shop. I use propane like its free when making Damascus. I don't skimp on the heat or wory about how much I'm consuming, it's the price you pay to play the game.

So all in all I will say this, be prepared for a lot of frustration and setbacks. The old saying holds true, if it was easy everyone would be doing it. But that's just it, once you figure it out it becomes much easier. Being successful is made a lot easier if you have the proper tools and machines. Not saying you have to have power hammers and presses to make Damascus but I tell you what I would not make as much as I do if I had to forge it all out by hand. So if you tell us what tools you have in your shop and your forging/metal working experience we can guide you better in your quest.
 
Thanks, JT. And like most things I do, I like to jump in head first and face a hard challenge. As far as tools, I'll be using a small propane forge (DFSW), 4lb hammer, Anvil, Dremel with a crap ton of bits, files, bench vise, bench grinder, and orbital sander attachment for power drill. I'd like to get a bench belt sander, as well, go no idea when that with be.
 
If you are starting with a hand hammer only, it is good to start with as many and as thin of layers as possible. That way you'll have to re-stack and draw out less.

If you could start with a 19 layer billet of 1/16" stock, thus being just a bit thicker than an inch (reasonable for hand hammering) you could weld and draw that, then re-stack into 4 pieces for 76 layers, weld and draw, re-stack 3 ways to get 228 layers. That's a good count for ladder pattern. Or, only double it the last time, ending in 148 layers, and twist, that should look pretty good.

You should go read every WIP thread you can find about making damascus knives. There are some great ones over in the Customs and Handmade section.
Also, use Google to search this site, it works much better. You'd go to your search bar and type:

damascus wip site:bladeforums.com

And that should hook you UP.
 
The one tool that would make life much easier that you don't have is an angle grinder. Get a cup wheel for cleaning the bill it's befor restacking, a cut off wheel for cutting the billet up and a normal wideish grinding wheel for cutting grooves into the billet for making ladder patterns.
 
To expound upon JT's statement, if you'll be making much damascus, keep an eye out for those old 7" and 9" angle grinders at second hand stores. You know, the ones with an all-metal case that look heavy and powerful enough to rip your arm off... I have three, a B&D, a Millers Falls, and a Milwaukee, one I got for free, one I got as repayment for a $40 loan that I was NEVER going to get back, and one I paid $20 for second hand (with a big, unused cup stone on it.) All of them are way more badass than a new 9" grinder you'd have to pay $180 for at a big box store. Be careful with old wheels, though. Better not to use them at all, but if you must, spin them up slow by bumping the switch, and protect yourself from the possibility of the wheel fragmenting!
That big grinding horsepower will save you lots of time, but make your shoulders ache...
 
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