New User/Introduction --Collins Legitimus Axe and some questions

1

1215

Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
193
Hello, First post here after doing much Googling and research. Sorry this is such a long post. I'm a closet enthusiast with a bunch of folding and fixed blade knives (Spyderco, Benchmade, other) but this is a first for me with an axe.

We had a tree (sugar maple) in the back yard that was sick and ant-infested which needed to be cut down. I borrowed a chainsaw and my girlfriend's father lent me/us an axe he had rusting away in his shed so that I could chop and split some of the wood. When it was presented to me all that was said was: "be careful the handle is splitting", "do you have access to a grinder so you can sharpen it?" and that it was her grandfather's (his father-in-law) axe which hadn't been touched in many years.

As it has been quite a few years since I've properly swung any tool, nevermind one with a blade; I was OK taping up the handle while I became re-acquainted with an axe... Knowing I would be pretty rough/hack in the beginning, I proactively started Googling to identify the axe and buy a replacement handle. That is where my questions come in. It was her grandfather's axe and while they aren't very sentimental about it, I think its the kind of thing that would be nice to keep in the family for several more generations... It would be nice to see my kids learn to use their great-grandfather's tools someday.

I'm not allowed to post photos yet but I will as soon as I am able.

I'd like to know about this axe... Is it worth anything? Am I ruining it by letting the handle break apart with intentions of replacing it? Is it rare? I've read that Collins axes have been faked --is this legit? I only ask about its value because if it's rare/worth something I'll stop using it and preserve it.

It's been used (and abused). Without speaking poorly of my hopeful future father-in-law, I'll just say that it appears he has been a fan of rotary bench grinders to sharpen and it looks like he may have confused this axe with a splitting wedge by the looks of the hammer marks on the poll.

I'm using it daily for a few hours to split wood so its been cleaning itself in the process. (The rust is wearing off and the metal is getting shiny, etc.) I haven't done anything to it other than properly sharpen the blade and wipe the head down with a lightly oiled rag (with used motor oil) before it gets put away. There was only one wooden wedge in the eye and between the cracks and its years of neglect, the handle now moves up & down about 1/4" after about 30-minutes of use.

I am able to faintly make out a logo that looks almost identical to this: (sorry looks like I can't insert hyperlinks yet either)

http://www.yesteryearstools.com/Yesteryears Tools/Collins Pt. 2_files/Col2 Legit Hart.jpg

Which I found here:

http://www.yesteryearstools.com/Yesteryears Tools/Collins Pt. 2.html

Going on what little I know, and that I can't post photos to get feedback/confirmation yet, I believe it's a Collins Legitimus axe. The only other thing I can offer to try and date it is that it looks like it has traces of red paint that appear to be original and the wedge in the handle does not have a metal cross-wedge. The handle is probably at least 50 years old knowing that the axe has been sitting in a shed for close to 25 years, and does not have any etchings or markings on it (or they are worn off). Her grandfather had a LOT of really high-end, good quality, American tools so I have no reason to think it would be fake unless he didn't know any better. He also lived about 30 minutes from Canton, CT.

The only thing that's odd to me about this axe is that it has a V notch in the top of the poll. I wish I could post a photo because I've never seen anything like it before and after hours of searching I cannot find a similar photo on Google. It is about 1/2 inch deep and 1" long, its cast there so it wasn't cut out after the fact. Its almost like it is where a fireman's pick/point would be. The only other thing I'm worried about is that there could be a small crack between the V and the top of the eye but having not cleaned it up very much, I'm not sure. If there is a crack there I'm also not sure if it is supposed to be there or if it is the result of years worth of hammering on the poll.

Last questions. I appreciate the help/responses and time it took to read all this!

I bought a 36" Grade AA replacement handle from House Handles which is scheduled to arrive today. I've never replaced an axe handle (but I know how to use Google) so what do I do to clean the head and eye while the handle is out? Should I do anything to the eye? Is House a good brand? I'd like to replace the handle and have it last another 50 years so if there is a better brand I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks again for reading and any thoughts/responses.
 
Welcome! You can post pics by hosting them to a site like Photobucket and using the IMG file name pasted into your posts.

Post some pics up so folks can see, and that will help with any answers.

By the sounds of it, I don't think it's particularly rare, but certainly worthy of a nice restoration. Your handle will likely be great from HH...good people over there.

Put a wire brush on an angle grinder and "scrub" the head clean. Then take a wire brush to the inside of the eye.

One good suggestion I saw was to soak a few shop towels in vinegar and put them in the eye to pull off the rust. Just be careful as the vinegar will do the same to the outside of the head and you'll lose the patina and rust protection it affords (not to mention the sweet vintage looks).

Follow the PDF and/or video from An Ax to Grind to hang and properly sharpen up the axe and you should be good to go.
 
I am reminded of my grandfather's axe. Been in the family four generations. So long in fact that the haft has been replaced twelve times and the head thrice...
 
SC T100 said:
Welcome! You can post pics by hosting them to a site like Photobucket and using the IMG file name pasted into your posts.

Post some pics up so folks can see, and that will help with any answers.

By the sounds of it, I don't think it's particularly rare, but certainly worthy of a nice restoration. Your handle will likely be great from HH...good people over there.

Put a wire brush on an angle grinder and "scrub" the head clean. Then take a wire brush to the inside of the eye.

One good suggestion I saw was to soak a few shop towels in vinegar and put them in the eye to pull off the rust. Just be careful as the vinegar will do the same to the outside of the head and you'll lose the patina and rust protection it affords (not to mention the sweet vintage looks).

Follow the PDF and/or video from An Ax to Grind to hang and properly sharpen up the axe and you should be good to go.
Click to expand...

Gotcha on the Photobucket links, I had forgotten I have a PB account.

Hadn't looked for a tutorial on how to sharpen but that PDF is almost exactly what my father and grandfather taught me and how we learned in Scouts as a kid. I used to be a pretty competitive ski racer so I have a LOT of fancy Swiss files with various cuts/pitches and a ton of DMT diamond stones which is what I've been using to sharpen the axe. It took 5-6 days worth of use and 10-12 times sharpening (I didn't want to just file off a ton of metal on day one) to get rid of the grinding wheel gouges and make a proper blade profile but its sharp enough now that you can cut hair with it... Until its used for a little while.

Whats the story with that V notch in the top of the poll?

littlehoot said:
I am reminded of my grandfather's axe. Been in the family four generations. So long in fact that the haft has been replaced twelve times and the head thrice...
Click to expand...
:) :)












 
Very Interesting! I don't know but I vaguely recall a catalog illustration like that.
 
well now I'm curious because it seems like you guys know everything about everything...

EDIT: Any idea what a notch like that could be used for? I would think that you would want to weight the top of the poll more than the bottom to get extra inertia when swinging so there must have been a good reason why they would take metal/weight out of that location. Could an attachment fit in there?
 
Maybe it got stuck in a stump and someone accidentally hit it with the sharp end of a maul?!?! That's the oddest thing I've seen on an axe yet. Could it just be a big chunk of damage that blew out?
 
looks like a chunk of steel has been knocked out of after it cracked. look at the grain steel in the v slot ant the notch at the top of the poll.
 
pommie said:
looks like a chunk of steel has been knocked out of after it cracked. look at the grain steel in the v slot ant the notch at the top of the poll.
Click to expand...

Still have been searching and cannot find anything that looks even remotely close to that notch. I can also say that there is a small crack between the V notch and the eye up at the top --and I'm not sure how deep it is or how far down it goes. When I pull the handle I'll know more. Does that crack make the axe unsafe in any way?

I noticed that at the eye, the left cheek (where the manufacturer's markings are) is thinner than the right cheek. Is that normal/usual?

I took some time with a set of dentist picks to clean out the junk in that notch and it looks fairly symmetrical. I didn't want to but I guess I'll probably soak the whole thing in vinegar just to clean it up so I can see what I'm dealing with.

There is still a faint sign of red paint on the axe which is in some of the lettering grooves as well. Did that come from the manufacturer and if so, what type of paint is it? If I soak the axe in vinegar I'd like to paint it again because the patina will all be gone. I'd imagine something like POR-15 would work and maybe hold up OK but something like a Rustoleum may wear off quickly??

I've seen my fair share of automotive casting cracks in exhaust manifolds, heads and engine blocks. I'm 50/50 as to whether or not this is a chunk of metal that fell out or if it was cast there intentionally. The bottom of the V notch as it goes in from the poll towards the eye is flat, or looks more like \_/ than a standard V and the whole thing is very symmetrical. Usually when things crack or break, especially from a casting, its oddly shaped, non-symmetrical and you can see the grain of the metal. This looks like it has casting marks in that notch in some places which were not filed/smoothed at the factory and in other places it looks worn smooth as if something was being put in and out of there. The only reason why I'd think it could be a chunk of metal that fell out is because of how deep the notch is and how close to the eye it gets. It really goes down to a very fine point as it gets closer to the eye. For something as simple/crude/blunt as an axe, that would be a fairly intricate casting if intentional.

So is it safe to use and is there any other place where I could find our more about the notch? Halfaxe mentioned seeing a catalog drawing similar to that --where can I find old Collins catalogs?

Thanks.

EDIT: Its definitely a crown in the middle. It's taller and more narrow than I was expecting. Under the "CAST STEEL" it says "MADE IN USA" in smaller letters.
 
Like pommie said it has a broken poll.

The axe in that condition is not collectable or valuable, but it will make a fine user as the Legetimus was the top of the Collins axe line and I have found them to be better steel than just those stamped Collins.
If it was mine I would use it and enjoy it.
 
garry3 said:
Like pommie said it has a broken poll.

The axe in that condition is not collectable or valuable, but it will make a fine user as the Legetimus was the top of the Collins axe line and I have found them to be better steel than just those stamped Collins.
If it was mine I would use it and enjoy it.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty good with a MIG/TIG and have welded cast iron manifolds and aluminum heads (without any future issues). Would I be foolish to try and weld it? (or would it just re-crack/break?)
 
I've never seen poll damage like that before. It almost looks like extreme localized pitting. Or like an inclusion popped out. I doubt it's a true Legitimus.

Welding it is a good idea. Just clean it down to bare metal first. And preheat before welding. Also, wrap a wet rag around the bit during welding to protect the temper in the bit.
 
Square_peg said:
I've never seen poll damage like that before. It almost looks like extreme localized pitting. Or like an inclusion popped out. I doubt it's a true Legitimus.
Click to expand...

I'm new here and I'm very new to axes and chopping blade forums but I respectfully argue that after doing a little more cleaning and researching, I think that this is a legit Collins Legitimus 5lb axe.

The only things that I would ask or state is that it appears to have originally come in red from the factory, it is marked with the number 5 just under the bottom of the poll, above the shoulder, between the eye and the poll --and the head weighs almost exactly 5lbs. After cleaning up the axe cheek a little more I can make out a logo that is almost exactly the same as this: http://www.yesteryearstools.com/Yesteryears Tools/Collins Pt. 2_files/Col2 Legit Hart.jpg (top left) except is says "MADE IN USA" not just "USA". The cheek is badly pitted but I can make out the LEGI of LEGITIMUS just below the crown in the logo.

So all I would ask is if it is fake how do I know? Did Collins ever sell 5# axes with red paint? At the same time they used the logo referenced above? I can probably find out when the axe was purchased so when were red 5# Legitimus axes produced by Collins?

Square_peg said:
Welding it is a good idea. Just clean it down to bare metal first. And preheat before welding. Also, wrap a wet rag around the bit during welding to protect the temper in the bit.
Click to expand...

How should I heat it? Usually I'd heat an exhaust manifold in the oven at 500*-550* prior to welding and then use a MAP torch to keep it hot. I usually use a big copper heat sink to pull the heat out of things so I can sort that but how far up should I be worried about? Can I assume that one inch in from the blade is enough or should I go up further?

Thanks.
 
Eyes punched off center are not uncommon. 5lb axes in that pattern are a little hard to come by though.. Did you weigh it? Is there a five stamped on it?

The break on the poll that was probably caused from a strike to the top of the axe and the off center eye I think would make it a little suspect. I couldn't be sure though.

There are some here that are pretty good with spotting counterfeit stamps but I don't know if there is enough stamp left on that axe.
 
garry3 said:
Eyes punched off center are not uncommon. 5lb axes in that pattern are a little hard to come by though.. Did you weigh it? Is there a five stamped on it?

The break on the poll that was probably caused from a strike to the top of the axe and the off center eye I think would make it a little suspect. I couldn't be sure though.

There are some here that are pretty good with spotting counterfeit stamps but I don't know if there is enough stamp left on that axe.
Click to expand...

Hopefully someone will chime in because I'm really interested to learn if its legit or counterfeit. There is a 5 stamped on the bottom of the head and it weighs 4.936 pounds. I just don't know enough about these axes to know what the markings should look like or where exactly they should be. I've cleaned it up a little more and I'll post a few better photos of the markings and stamps.
 
1215 said:
Hopefully someone will chime in because I'm really interested to learn if its legit or counterfeit. There is a 5 stamped on the bottom of the head and it weighs 4.936 pounds. I just don't know enough about these axes to know what the markings should look like or where exactly they should be. I've cleaned it up a little more and I'll post a few better photos of the markings and stamps.
Click to expand...

This is an older thread on what may be a counterfeit Collins.http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...eit-Collins-Legitimus-Axe?highlight=legitimus

Operater that replied to this thread is pretty knowledgeable and may be able to help you.

That is a hard to find size and would be quite collectable if not for the break in the poll.
 
I would also like to add that I have found that unlike some brands the Collins Legitimus line of axes seem to file with quite a bit more effort than there axes that are just stamped Collins. If you have a chance to pick up an older Collins stamped axe a file may tell you all you need to know.
 
garry3 thanks for the replies. I've never welded a cast steel axe before. Should I treat it the same as I would treat a cast manifold? (Drill/grind out the crack and TIG weld it with 309 filler?) Does anyone know what the composition of the steel is in a genuine Collins axe? Any nickel or other metal content? Usually if I do a reasonable job you'll be able to tell if you look closely but after a while of use you'd never know unless you really looked at the grain of the metal so I don't want to screw this up.

Next, just this morning I picked up a Collins double bit head and a 2 # single bit head at an estate sale (among other things). I'll test with the files. Thanks, that's a good suggestion. Using Vallorbe files makes any job easy but since I don't know any different it should be easier on the 2# and regular Collins double-bit I just picked up. It also makes me wonder more about the metal composition (referencing welding and the proper filler to use above).

I had seen that thread previously. That thread is really one of the only places that I've seen stampings similar to the ones on my axe head. But my markings are slightly different than that. If you look at the "CAST STEEL" and "WARRANTED" on the right of this photo: http://postimg.org/image/ye15rckhv/ you can see that it has been stamped and then re-stamped. There are clearly two sets of letters starting with the "AST" of cast steel and then also again on the "ARRAN" of warranted. Whether or not the original stamp was legit, I have no idea; however the second stamp was done in at least two parts, possibly each word individually (potentially 5-6 stamps to make up the whole logo). You can see this as there are no visible double letters on the Collins & CO or HARTFORD however there are double letters on the CAST STEEL and WARRANTED and the doubles/overlaps are in a different spacing/different places so those two words seem to have been stamped independent of each other. Also, the crown and hand/hammer as well as the LEGITIMUS are both very low and the hand/hammer overlaps the words which a manufacturer would never do. The handle of the hammer would overlap the D of HARTFORD and the head of the hammer would overlap somewhere in the CA of CAST STEEL.

Also, something interesting to note is that my logo is almost exactly the same as this: http://www.yesteryearstools.com/Yesteryears Tools/Collins Pt. 2_files/Col2 Legit Hart.jpg but not identical. My logo says "MADE IN USA" and USA has no periods whereas the logo I linked to just prior just says "U.S.A.". That said and being honest, my "MADE IN USA" does not look like it is perfectly parallel with the "CAST STEEL" directly above it. The USA is spaced and angled slightly downward to the word steel above it. If you also notice, every logo I can find that has the pattern

COLLINS & CO________HARTFORD
_CAST STEEL________WARRANTED

all use a double ring on the bottom of the crown (like mine) and the crown is evenly spaced between the words (also like mine) whereas this logo set http://postimg.org/image/ye15rckhv/ is all over the place. Grem89's http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...eit-Collins-Legitimus-Axe?highlight=legitimus legitimus could have been a good original stamp and legit axe that was re-stamped, or it could have been a fake that was stamped a second time to keep up with Collins' current logos. No idea.

Here are some more detailed photos. You can clearly see the number 5 stamped on the axe. In terms of vintage and production date, when was this axe made? When did Collins use red paint on 5# axes, stamped with the number 5 in that location, using a double-ring 5-point crown like this logo--or is this the wrong combination of stuff?

The only other difference I can say is that this logo feels more like it was pressed or etched in, not stamped with a hammer. The made in usa and the crown are smaller lines and not as deep, and you can BARELY make out the EGITI of LEGITIMUS (look by the tip of my knife blade for the E and G that are easiest to make out. its easiest to see the three horizontal lines of the E) which seem to be either double-lined, very lightly etched or stamped in, or that part of the axe has worn more. The word LEGITIMUS is really there. You'd have to have it in your hands to confirm --which also raises other questions, from eBay photos of other LEGITIMUS stamps, the word seems to be stamped in at least equal or possibly larger font with a deeper stamp than even COLLINS & CO. Could that mean that this was near the end of US/CT production so it was done cheaper or that possibly its not a legitimus axe just a reguar Collins & CO axe?

Thanks for all the replies and all the help!

More photos:







 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top