New York Subway Laws

S

Shpongled

Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
48
Hey guys,

First time posting here but I've lurked here for a while. I finally decided to join up and discuss with you all after having a frustrating event happen today.

I recently moved to New York and today I was getting on the subway to go to class and as always, I keep a small 2 inch folder, specifically a Kershaw Baby Boa, in my right pocket. I keep it clipped onto the pocket in order to keep it legal, at least that's how it is in Maryland where I moved from. It was a fruitless attempt to avoid a concealed weapon charge. A group of police followed me and took me aside telling me they could arrest me for having it and they took the knife from me, giving me a court date and a possible fine. They also took my knife. They also laughed about who wanted the knife among the group of them. How offensive, I paid for that knife with my hard earned money.

That knife is important to me, I've had it forever and it has sentimental value, not to mention the money that it cost me. I told them I wasn't from here and that I've only lived here for a bit over a week and I knew the knife laws in Maryland. I had my license to verify my story and my criminal background checked out. That didn't stop them from treating me as if I was some stupid criminal who couldn't figure out that what I did was illegal. The fact of the matter is that I know my laws in Maryland and that I, foolishly, I suppose, assumed that New York wouldn't be different, or at least THAT different.

So, here I am, feeling like I did something wrong when in reality I really didn't. I found this page, and from what I can tell, I didn't break any NY knife law.

http://knife-expert.com/ny.txt

I don't know how up to date that is but from the looks of it, the only thing they could nab me on is having a "dangerous knife" but what the hell kind of classification is that anyway? It also seems that they need some kind of suspicion that I was going to use it to harm somebody. I live in a fairly dangerous neighborhood where self-defense is important to me, now I have nothing to defend myself with and I now realize that I won't have anything to defend myself with day after day.

Anyway, is there some way I can get my knife back? Is there some way I can avoid a fine? I fail to see what I did wrong besides not knowing the knife laws, which admittedly, is my fault. I just feel the whole situation could of been way better handled if they simply asked me to get rid of it before getting on the subway. It wouldn't have cost either of us court costs and it wouldn't cost me an expensive knife. Anyway, just wanted to get some opinions from people more knowledgeable than I.

Thanks guys,

Shpongled
 
Hi Shpongled,

Welcome to NYC, I'm sorry the knife laws weren't more welcoming... If the pocket clip is visible, then it considered "in open view" which is why they stopped you in the first place. The court date could be for carrying a "gravity knife". I quoted the parts in your link that are reasons for the stop below. I can't help you with getting out of it or the exact consequences though. I'd contact Knife Rights for help if you're a member. If you're not, join, then contact them for help. Hopefully Doug or someone else will offer more help in this thread.

10-133 Possession of knives or instruments. (NYC law)
A. Legislative findings. It is hereby declared and found that possession in public places, streets and parks of the city, of large knives is a menace to the public health, peace, safety and welfare of the people of the city; that the possession in public places, streets and parks of such knives has resulted in the commission of many homicides, robberies, maimings and assaults of and upon the people of the city; that this condition encourages and fosters the commission of crimes and contributes to juvenile delinquency, youth crime and gangsterism; that unless the possession or carrying in public places, streets and parks of the city of such knives without a lawful purpose is prohibited, there is danger of an increase in crimes of violence and other conditions detrimental to public peace, safety and welfare. It is further declared and found that the wearing or carrying of knives in open view in public places while such knives are not being used for a lawful purpose is unnecessary and threatening to the public and should be prohibited.
Click to expand...


- Section 265.00 Definitions... (NYS law)
5. "Gravity knife" means any
knife has blade which is released from the handle or
sheath thereof by the force of gravity of the application
of centrifugal force which, when released, is locked in
place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other
device. [Note: In NYC, and potentially in other NY
jurisdictions, this definition is construed to apply to
ANY folding knife with a blade that locks open. ]
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the welcome and the heads up, I didn't see that part before. I guess I was under the impression that if it was concealed, it would be a much more serious issue. Maybe things are different in Maryland or I have misunderstood the whole time. I'll check out Knife Rights. Thanks for shedding some light on it for me.
 
You were given a pink "criminal court summons" right? Read the violation section as it should say ( NYC ADMIN Code 10-133) as the violation of law. If they charged you with a gravity knife then they would have had to take you in as that is a Class A Misd and requires photos and prints and then on line booking unless you are determined to be DAT eliageable ( that requires officers to fill out more forms so it happens less everyday). You charge (10-133) is considered a violation and not a criminal offense in NY law, but can carry a fine up to $250 and up to 15 days in jail. Read the allowable times you can carry the knife and see if any of them was the reason and place you were going too. Never carry a knife as a weapon as that makes it illegal ( even for self defense). You can go to court anytime after ten days have passed to settle the summons but there is a date noted on it that you must appear. Chances are you will pay a fine of $75 to 100. You MAY get a ACD which allows for them to dismiss the charge if you don't get in trouble for one year.

Now as for them keeping the knife, well I feel that is not correct and the NYPD seems to differ on this itself. They did not charge you with an illegal knife, but rather an improper method of carrying it. If you were given a summons for driving your legal car in an incorrect manner would they take your car or just give you a summons and let you drive off? It seems the keeping of a knife that is legal but not properly carried should remain with the person carrying it. If they really kept it they could face serious charges themselves, but they may have well vouchered it and been saying they were going to keep it as some officers behave that way. Think Sophmore in high School to explain that behavior. The issue you may have is their is always a chance the knife is illegal ( can be flicked open and locks) and the DA has the right to add charges which could make this much worse. You could engage a lawyer for the summons and have him ask for the knife back, but don't do it yourself. There will be some here telling you to report this as a theft to the DA or internal affairs, but if you ever went fishing you know about how those worms get once you open the can....Remember at this point this is a summons for a violation that does not give you a crinimal record ( if it is 10-133)....This is just my take on the matter so please seek other advise and do what you feel best. Contact Knife rights as they are dealing with several NYC knife issues. Good Luck, and follow the law as you DID break it and not knowing the law is never and excuse for breaking it....
 
Shpongled, while I defer to the others who are much more competent experts on New York's law, I have news for you as a Marylander myself: There was no point in you ever carrying your knife with the clip showing. In Maryland, folding pocket knives may be carried fully concealed or out in plain sight, no matter the length, no matter your age, no matter your intent. Folders are called "penknives," and are exempt from the weapon statute under our state law. If anybody told you different, they should be ashamed. We even have had several cops lose their badges here for incorrectly enforcing this law (that is, arresting for a concealed folding knife).

Not all jurisdictions actually have prohibitions against concealed weapons. Some laws are phrased such that certain objects cannot be carried at all, some like New York City and Los Angeles have laws about plain sight but actually allow concealment, and some like Vermont or Indiana have no laws on carrying knives at all.
 
Shpongled, I advise you to quit while you're ahead in this particular instance. The cops let you off with a non criminal summons, but the DA does have the option of adding charges at any time up toyour court appearance. Right now, you have the equivalent of a speeding ticket. You go and try t push back, no matter if you are right, your gonna open a can of worms with the NYC law enforcement minions.

It's New York city! This place has been in the news constantly, for draconian behavior toward people going about their life, and carrying a knife that was visible to the cops. This is established behavior, nothing new at all. Being from Maryland, as I am, this should come as not shock, if you read the news or lurk on any knife forum. When you leave Maryland, which actually has some liberal knife laws, it's like the line from the Wizzard Of Oz. You're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

It's okay to carry a knife in NYC, I do it when we go up there about once a month or so. I just carry a small sak on my keyring. No real need for a knife in Mayor Bloomberg's fiefdom. It's not like your out in the wilderness. In the 20 or so years the better half and Ihave been going to NYC for yuks, I've never needed much of a knife. A 2 inch knife is not going to do you much good for defense anyway, if it came to that. You're way better off with some sort of innocent looking impact weapon to clobber someone with if need be. But that 2 inch baby boa, when flicked open in front of a judge is going to do way more damage to you, than you think. The baby boa is assisted right? The DA will make a big deal of it being like a switchblade, and it will look like one to a bunch of Bloomberg Koolaid drinkers. Just leave it alone, and go on about your life, and be aware of the laws where you go. You're getting off easy, take advantage of it and get on down the road. Forget making waves trying to get your knife back, Kershaw makes lots of them. You'll be able to get another one. But keep it shoved down in your pocket from now on. Or better still, carry a knife that a NYC cop can't do anything about. Hey, it's not right, but when your dancing on their dollar, they call the tune. If ya don't like it, don't go there. But it is their city, and their laws. It's up to you to decide how you want to go.

Carl.
 
I do agree that you should contact Knife Rights but I suspect they will in fact tell you to just pay the fine. I would tend to agree with that advice.

I hope Bloomberg and Vance lose the lawsuit and in fact are found to have violated personal rights. Shame we can't put them in prison...
 
jackknife said:
Shpongled, I advise you to quit while you're ahead in this particular instance. The cops let you off with a non criminal summons, but the DA does have the option of adding charges at any time up toyour court appearance. Right now, you have the equivalent of a speeding ticket. You go and try t push back, no matter if you are right, your gonna open a can of worms with the NYC law enforcement minions.

It's New York city! This place has been in the news constantly, for draconian behavior toward people going about their life, and carrying a knife that was visible to the cops. This is established behavior, nothing new at all. Being from Maryland, as I am, this should come as not shock, if you read the news or lurk on any knife forum. When you leave Maryland, which actually has some liberal knife laws, it's like the line from the Wizzard Of Oz. You're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

It's okay to carry a knife in NYC, I do it when we go up there about once a month or so. I just carry a small sak on my keyring. No real need for a knife in Mayor Bloomberg's fiefdom. It's not like your out in the wilderness. In the 20 or so years the better half and Ihave been going to NYC for yuks, I've never needed much of a knife. A 2 inch knife is not going to do you much good for defense anyway, if it came to that. You're way better off with some sort of innocent looking impact weapon to clobber someone with if need be. But that 2 inch baby boa, when flicked open in front of a judge is going to do way more damage to you, than you think. The baby boa is assisted right? The DA will make a big deal of it being like a switchblade, and it will look like one to a bunch of Bloomberg Koolaid drinkers. Just leave it alone, and go on about your life, and be aware of the laws where you go. You're getting off easy, take advantage of it and get on down the road. Forget making waves trying to get your knife back, Kershaw makes lots of them. You'll be able to get another one. But keep it shoved down in your pocket from now on. Or better still, carry a knife that a NYC cop can't do anything about. Hey, it's not right, but when your dancing on their dollar, they call the tune. If ya don't like it, don't go there. But it is their city, and their laws. It's up to you to decide how you want to go.

Carl.
Click to expand...
If Tom19176 is correct, and I have no doubt that he is because he is retired NYPD, then the OP received a pink "criminal court" summons. That is a hell of alot more than a speeding ticket. A moving violation fine, speeding or otherwise, can be settled from anywhere in the country by mailing a check to the court or DMV office in the state where the offense took place. This guy is going in for a mandatory NYC court appearance and the charges could, indeed, be upgraded at any time. I just hope that the judge tosses the charges and lets the OP off with a warning.
 
Sorry to hear about your experience. It is a terrible thing when laws are so oppressive that a man can't carry a 2 inch pocket knife. I want to say fight back for your knife, and fight back because of the idiocy of these laws. But the idea of elevated charges may not be worth it, especially since it is an assisted knife.

If you love the Baby Boa, Id get another one soon as they are discontinued for 2012, so they stopped making them in 2011.

images
 
The OP has not logged in since he joined and posted so I am not sure he read any of this, but if it is an assisted opener than the NYPD has (wrongfully) declared them to switchblades. That makes all the more worth while to just go to court for the summons.....
 
with all due respect to the op.
No one should enter a foreign country or state and carry a weapon without finding out that country
or state's laws as many differ.

In Australia and Germany for example (I stand corrected if I'm wrong)
You can't carry a folding knife that opens with one hand, which pretty much rules out nearly all folders
from cold steel, kershaw, bench made, benchmark, crkt and spyderco.
 
Been a way for the past few days but I really do appreciate all the replies.

Tom, yes, the violation I got was 10-133. All the information you guys have given me is great, I really appreciate it. I realize what I did was illegal, and that is a black and white matter, I just feel that the fact that it was illegal is stupid but that's a whole other matter really. So I'll face the consequences I guess, just saddens me that this is the world I live in and may one day pass down to my children. Anyway, I guess I'll try to make as little fuss as possible since it seems that's the safest thing to do. If the charges go up then I guess we'll see what happens.

Again, thanks everybody. I really do appreciate it.

Shpongled
 
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