Newbie: Can't get layers to weld

T

toobit

Joined
Apr 13, 2020
Messages
44
Hi everyone!
I have tried 3 billets with no success. My steps.

1095, 1015n (4 layers)
Cleaned, sanded, acetone.
Welded on all corners and middle side. It was a solid billet.

When I get it to the forge: I heat until close to orange, then flux the sides with borax. Heat yellow hot and start banging. I have a Hells forge single burner.My thought is it is not hot enough? I heat, hammer, heat hammer and then all of a sudden they start splitting :(

Not sure what I am doing wrong.

k78Y0pe.png
 
Color is speculative, I imagine you aren’t hot enough. Do you have any other way to gauge your temp ?
You can try the coat hanger trick. When you think your at welding temp stick in a straightened coat hanger and poke the billet and the hanger should want to stick after a couple seconds of contact.
When you are setting welds set them lightly, not much more than the weight of the hammer itself.
Try using charcoal lighter fluid instead of acetone.
Best of luck.
 
3fifty7 said:
Color is speculative, I imagine you aren’t hot enough. Do you have any other way to gauge your temp ?
You can try the coat hanger trick. When you think your at welding temp stick in a straightened coat hanger and poke the billet and the hanger should want to stick after a couple seconds of contact.
When you are setting welds set them lightly, not much more than the weight of the hammer itself.
Try using charcoal lighter fluid instead of acetone.
Best of luck.
Click to expand...


Great idea. I will try that next time. Does it matter if the layers of steel are different thicknesses? If you notice, the 15N20 is on the outside of the billet and it warped fast.
 
3fifty7 said:
Color is speculative, I imagine you aren’t hot enough. Do you have any other way to gauge your temp ?
You can try the coat hanger trick. When you think your at welding temp stick in a straightened coat hanger and poke the billet and the hanger should want to stick after a couple seconds of contact.
When you are setting welds set them lightly, not much more than the weight of the hammer itself.
Try using charcoal lighter fluid instead of acetone.
Best of luck.
Click to expand...

Also, in regards to color, it was cooling off at that point. I banged it for a while and stopped. The color when forging was pretty close if not already yellow. It seemed like it took 5min or so to get that hot, and then it didnt look like it was getting hotter.
 
15N20 stock is usually in the thin side, I’d put another layer on 1095(if that’s what you have) on the outside but it’s not a deal breaker.
Try making your stack as tight as possible, weld while clamped or in a vise, don’t be scared to weld the corners and a 2-3 spots down the side.
That billet is is on the small side but I’d give it more time to heat thoroughly through. It is also possible your forge isn’t running up to welding temps.
 
3fifty7 said:
15N20 stock is usually in the thin side, I’d put another layer on 1095(if that’s what you have) on the outside but it’s not a deal breaker.
Try making your stack as tight as possible, weld while clamped or in a vise, don’t be scared to weld the corners and a 2-3 spots down the side.
That billet is is on the small side but I’d give it more time to heat thoroughly through. It is also possible your forge isn’t running up to welding temps.
Click to expand...
That’s what I think too. I will put another layer of 1095, and then test to see if it’s hot enough. Otherwise I need to get a better forge.
 
5min? Yeah not even close hot enough. Not familiar with that forge but any ive ever used It takes a good 12-20min to get the entire bullet to forge welding temps
 
It needs to be hotter for the initial weld. Also, remember that the middle has to be as hot as the outside, which takes time.
 
Also on the first several heats, don't let it cool down much.

Just pull it out of the forge do a series of fast light blows to set the weld, then straight back in the forge, some let it get much cooler than a dark yellow.

If you're doing it by hand you really need to work fast, and keep the heat high.
 
toobit said:
Cleaned, sanded, acetone.
Click to expand...
toobit said:
Heat yellow hot and start banging.
Click to expand...
toobit said:
I banged it for a while and stopped.
Click to expand...
toobit said:
Not sure what I am doing wrong.
Click to expand...
This is always hard to diagnose without actually seeing what you are doing, but in addition to the above, a few thoughts come to mind.
First, are you sure you've got a reducing atmosphere in your forge?
Second, how hard are you hitting/banging on the steel. As 357 mentioned above, the first heat or two should be light taps, to 'set' the weld. What this means is that in the first couple/few heats you are only trying to get the mating surfaces of the pieces to touch and squeeze out any air pockets and flux. Only after this is accomplished should you start hitting harder to do any forging. If you hit too hard before the weld is 'set', then your blows will be sliding the individual pieces on each other instead of welding them together.
Third, what do you mean by cleaned/sanded/acetone? All you need is clean steel on the surfaces, so all I do is take one or two passes on an old 36 or 60 grit belt to take off the mill scale and rust off the pieces, then tack the corners together.
 
To get a feel for the billet being ready, you can use kerosene/diesel with the cold billet, then bring the billet up to temp. Put some borax on the billet at temp, and the borax will sizzle on the surface like water in oil on a frying pan. Once you see this, and have a successful weld, you will know what to look for. Give the billet 15 more minutes to make sure the whole thing is at temp before setting the weld. If it doesn’t stick the first time, you need to figure out why, rather than repeating the same process unsuccessfully. I find it hard to reset a weld that comes apart. Nearly impossible.
 
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Willie71 said - "To get a feel for the billet being ready, you can use kerosene/diesel as the billet comes up to temp. Put some borax on the billet at temp, ...."

Is this an error Willie? Putting a red hot billet into kerosene/diesel is a really bad idea. Can you please explain what you meant.
 
Last edited:
weo said:
This is always hard to diagnose without actually seeing what you are doing, but in addition to the above, a few thoughts come to mind.
First, are you sure you've got a reducing atmosphere in your forge?
Second, how hard are you hitting/banging on the steel. As 357 mentioned above, the first heat or two should be light taps, to 'set' the weld. What this means is that in the first couple/few heats you are only trying to get the mating surfaces of the pieces to touch and squeeze out any air pockets and flux. Only after this is accomplished should you start hitting harder to do any forging. If you hit too hard before the weld is 'set', then your blows will be sliding the individual pieces on each other instead of welding them together.
Third, what do you mean by cleaned/sanded/acetone? All you need is clean steel on the surfaces, so all I do is take one or two passes on an old 36 or 60 grit belt to take off the mill scale and rust off the pieces, then tack the corners together.
Click to expand...


Great info everyone. I believe I know these are all combinations of the issue. I tried to find a good tutorial on youtube but decided to post here after not finding much.

Here is what I will try differently.

1. Create billet with 1095 on outer sides of billet since the 15n is thin.
2. Keep initial forge time up to 15-20min to make sure it gets hot enough (I believe this could be the main issue)
3. Tap billet, on first few heats. I banged hard before.
4. Clean surfaces with acetone and a lower grit of paper. I cleaned with a surface conditioner belt before.

I will let you guys know how it goes!

Thanks for all the support!
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
"To get a feel for the billet being ready, you can use kerosene/diesel as the billet comes up to temp. Put some borax on the billet at temp, ...."

Is this an error Willie? Putting a red hot billet into kerosene/diesel is a really bad idea. Can you please explain what you meant.
Click to expand...
I think he means use kerosene before heating it up and flux after it’s heated up.

Hoss
 
I figured the same, but a novice who hasn't ever used hydrocarbon flux might follow the exact wording and stick a hot billet in the kero/diesel tank.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Willie71 said - "To get a feel for the billet being ready, you can use kerosene/diesel as the billet comes up to temp. Put some borax on the billet at temp, ...."

Is this an error Willie? Putting a red hot billet into kerosene/diesel is a really bad idea. Can you please explain what you meant.
Click to expand...

I soak the billet BEFORE putting it in the forge, bring it up to temp, then use borax. Not typed out clearly. My apologies.Edited my post to be clearer.
 
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