Newbie getting started-BF has created another monster

S

Shamrockninja

Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
61
Okay BF, thanks to you I have begun my journey down the road to make my own knives.
I've been an enthusiast for decades, but the level of knowledge and skill here has caused me to re evaluate my goals and strive to become a true knifemaker.
Im not concerned with selling knives as much as I am concerned with being able to make a knife I can trust my life with.
Im doing this for me, not for profit.... though even on a shoestring budget, I want to create a quality blade.

I have "built" a few knives from blanks, customized a few prodo blades, even made my own horizontal scout-style sheaths..but after comming here, that's just not enough...lol

So now I take the plunge.
Im already eyeballing stock from Aldo ( some sort of easy to use stuff, eventually Id like to try my hand at DIY Heat treating, but for know they will be sent to Texas for a professional HT)
and looking to get a few more tools.

I have an HF 2x30 belt sander, and some basic files, sanders, drill, and the very basic stuff, but I know I'll need to step up in the tool department as well.

Im not scared to jump right in, and I like a bit of a challenge.

I do have a couple of questions about tools and metals that may seem a bit.."uneducated", but please bear with me. I'll do my best to make BF proud.

My first knife/knives will be full tang fixed blades..6-9 inches overall length, probably "drop point-ish" pattern for simplicity. Just all around, mid size camp beater types
( I also have an Idea for a sleek chopper design, but that's to come later.


1. For a beginner with alot of "moxy", what would be a good steel to make my first knives from?
Ive heard alot about 1086, but the good stuff doesn't seem to be around anymore. What would some of you suggest I buy from Aldo's inventory for a 6-9 inch drop point?
Thickness?

2. Any links to tutorials or threads ( written or video) about blade grinds/beginners would be graciously appreciated. Ive devoured tons of info, but I'll gladly consume more.

3. any basic books, links websites that can give me a beginner's intro into metallurgy would also be a plus.

4. I do still enjoy "Skinning Blanks" with handle scales...any links or information about where to find nice quality blade blanks would be a huge help.

Im basically begging for information and guidance, beyond the scope of my limited internet skills(z?)..lol

I'll try and keep all my dumb questions in this thread, as not to clog the forums.
Thanks in advance.
This forum has changed my life.
 
I'm sure the count will pop by with his very informative post. In the mean time check out the stickies at the top of the forum, there is a ton of good information there on basically all your questions. Aldo's 1084 seems to be a very good steel for people to start with, and it's inexpensive. Plus Aldo is very easy to deal with.
 
1084 is a great steel and if you decide later to try heat treating it yourself it's just about the best you can get to learn with. Aldo's 1084 is really clean and grinds like butter too.

It sounds like you've got all the tools you need to start out with. A 1x30 can make great knives. It won't be quite as fast as a 2x72 and the belts won't last nearly as long but It shouldn't hold you back for quite a while yet. You will need to get yourself some quality belts though. Try Tru-grit or Supergrit for the best deals on 1x30 belts. Harbor Freight carries blue zirconia belts that are really cheap too.

Best thing I can say about just starting out is to draw a LOT of knives. Draw your own designs, draw designs you like from other makers, redraw and modify those designs until you start to get a feel for lines and flow and proportions. Designing a good looking knife is harder than it seems and just like making a good knife it takes a lot of practice.

Good luck and have fun!
 
Here is the promised post.

If you're going to ship to Texas for HT, you need to use an air hardening steel.
ats154, CPM 154 or such.

& 1084 for the DIY HT
Aldo is good.

All the knifemaker suppliers carry blade blanks, bit I like the website at Knifekits.com the best.



I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions. I'm sure it will help you too.

The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V21

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe splits.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.

Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.

Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench.
Forget used motor oil, it's toxic and doesn't work that well.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;

Even grocery store canola oil works well enough for steels like 5160 that don't need a "fast oil" like W1 or the 10xx steels do.

Brine and water are almost free, and technically correct for W1 and "water hardening" steels but a fast oil like Parks 50 and Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades.


Glue – Epoxy

Use a Fresh package, slow setting, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and well as seal out moisture.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive, blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean & no oil including fingerprints. Soap, Acetone & Alcohol, Blasting.
Clamp with moderate pressure= avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
These are well proven.
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential .
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than youfirst think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here

This is a special Google page that searches BF only.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

V21 Added Glue Oct 3, 2011.

22267139.jpg
 
Welcome to our addiction. :thumbup:
You are not a monster, just someone who is about to get very poor and stay that way for....well forever. ;)
 
If you use 1084, you'll probably be sending it to Meadville, PA instead of Texas.
 
Patrice Lemée;10241379 said:
Welcome to our addiction. :thumbup:
You are not a monster
Click to expand...

lol I'll bring that quote back in a few months.
This time it's stock removal....but within a few months It'll seem like the work is not "mine" enough, so I'll be attempting to melt metal.
Yes I have Aloe Vera, Neosporin, and band aids stocked up.
And a current fire extinguisher :D

Im already scroungin scrap steel cable for my first forge attempt.

Mystery steel damascus..lol.
Yes I am a glutton for punishment.

Thank you very much for the list of links 12345678910.
I love the fact that you guys emphasize real world safety in every step, and I may joke around a bit, but I take safety advice very very seriously.
Ive followed a few of those links already.

VERY solid stuff there, and I have to admit a few of those knifemaking tutorials are what convinced me that "Meh, I can do that without losin a finger! Hold my beer and watch this!"


Just kidding.
I'd never let anyone hold my Beer.
 
I'll second, or is that fourth... Aldo's 1084. I do have to say that the stuff is VERY soft as shipped. Softer than I'm used to, that's for sure. I just bought some 1/8" and the first stuff I tried out was the 1" wide and wound up bending it significantly and had to carefully straighten it. Much softer than I'm used to. That's a GOOD thing, just took some getting used to. I'd suggest starting out with some of his 3/16" 1084 in whatever width you need for your plans. That's for your first knife or two, but if you're confident you'll stick with this for a bit, buy at least a few bars of whatever sizes suit you, might as well since shipping won't change much between one bar and four or five at least.
 
VERY solid stuff there, and I have to admit a few of those knifemaking tutorials are what convinced me that "Meh, I can do that without losin a finger! Hold my beer and watch this!"


Just kidding.
I'd never let anyone hold my Beer.
Click to expand...

We are going to get along just fine, my friend.:thumbup:
 
I have a recent post up that has good noob info.... because I am one too. Files and sandpaper with 1084 will turn out good stuff if you are patient. The heat treat is easy if you can build a fire in the back yard and put a hair dryer on it (over simplified but not by much). Read and watch as many videos as you can. Enjoy!
 
Okay, after reading a bit more, I'll take that advice, go for the 1084 and jump right in, doing the DIY Heat treat.
Can't learn to swim without getting into the water, right?
What could possibly go wrong? :D

At least this way I can buy equipment, belts etc.. accordingly


So thus far, Im going with Aldo's 1084, stock removal and home HT.

Thanks to advice from the listed links, Im going to draw out a knife onto a pice of wood and try to cut and "grind" the knife out of wood first.
I think this is probably very good advice for a first timer like me.

So expect weak phone pics in the next day or so of a wooden dummy for welcomed criticism :D
( I take criticism pretty well, I'm 43 and my skin is thouroughly leathered)
 
Shamrockninja,
You definitely came to the best place to start. I have learned a ton from this site, and most everyone here will bend over backwards to help if your sincere. My one recommendation as far as gear goes is a leather apron. I am only online right this second because I just burned a nice hole in my shirt and jeans. Figured I would check out the threads. And you cannot go wrong with 1084. I love the stuff. Good Luck and have fun.
Dan

P.S. You know that feeling after the beach and you have sand in uncomfortable places, it is worse when its metal shavings cause you dumped your dip bucket on yourself to put out the fire.
 
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You'll love the 1084, I just finished heat treating a little blade for myself, a small western tanto style guy. Jab the point into some hard wood and wiggle side to side till it pops out, no damage or flex. I tried to do the traditional rod test for the edge but the edge neither deformed nor chipped and I was putting a slice in the rod (416 stainless too, not brass). My goal was just to test if I had the tempering heat right, I'd say it's good to go. Aldo is THE MAN for steel. :)
 
Where at in the wild wild west?
Just may be someone close that can help you get started.

Greg Shahan
 
San Diego area ATM, due to employment..Grrr.

Wife and I are lookin to relocate Northern Cali within the next 6 months.
We moved to Cali about 3 years ago from Georgia due to my job at the time.
 
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Well thats a long way from me.

If you ever get to NW Oklahoma stop by.

Greg Shahan


P.S. Aldo's 1084 is better than good.
 
Jason Magruder said:
Oh yeah, don't wear running shoes! Those mesh tops catch on fire real easy :D
Click to expand...
Thick leather boots.. $100
DanCo said:
Shamrockninja,
You definitely came to the best place to start. I have learned a ton from this site, and most everyone here will bend over backwards to help if your sincere. My one recommendation as far as gear goes is a leather apron. I am only online right this second because I just burned a nice hole in my shirt and jeans. Figured I would check out the threads. And you cannot go wrong with 1084. I love the stuff. Good Luck and have fun.
Dan
Click to expand...

Leather/thick apron $ 65


P.S. You know that feeling after the beach and you have sand in uncomfortable places, it is worse when its metal shavings cause you dumped your dip bucket on yourself to put out the fire.
Click to expand...

Bucket of clean water in case of self fire extiguishing..to keep shards of metal out of your crotch.. priceless!
 
Shamrockninja

The entire Heat treating/metallurgy thing is in my opinion the MOST difficult thing to come to terms with. At the same time I find it fascinating. I think if you were to start out reading the sticky titled Rosetta Stone of Metallurgy it would be a good start, but only a start. Read more generalized introductory types of materials too, by different people. The forum is blessed to have some real smart people who seem to think like crystal structured steel.

I look forward to seeing your crappy phone photos and knife shaped objects. I like your humor too.

- Paul Meske
 
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