Newbie Here needs assistance

S

squirrelhntr

Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Messages
4
Ok to start I just put a handle and edge on a meat cleaver that had been used for deer processing(for my girlfriends dad). It had been left outside all year for the past 10 yrs or so.
Well after I was done it turned out pretty good, so I was offered a 4ft-1/4" circular saw blade to make knives. I was also told I could use the scrap they had around to make a forge.
Her dad and brother are mechanics (w/ a large shop at home) and have alot stuff laying around. I did some research on making a forge out of a brake drum which they have plenty and as luck has it they also have a couple yds of old coal from a coal burning house. Ok my problem is the blade has carbide inserts and no markings to let me know brand or steel type. I will have a cobra DHC 2000 torch to cut blanks with and a toaster oven to use for heat treat or whatever. lol

So does anyone have any ideas what I have here to work with? Also if the forge works out I might try to work with leaf and coil springs. I will say Im a certified welder/brazer/solderer so Im used to working with metal. Heres a couple pics also..

6331752709_ec1827a93c.jpg
[/url] 2011-11-08 09.48.24 by Fudog, on Flickr[/IMG]
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[/url] 2011-11-08 09.48.38 by Fudog, on Flickr[/IMG]
 
You've already figured it out, since the saw has carbide inserts, the saw body can be mild steel.

For all the work involved in making a knife, you may as well start with real known steel.

For coal forges, Also see the I forge Iron forum - propane is much more common here.



I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions. I'm sure it will help you too.

The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V21

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe splits.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.

Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.

Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench.
Forget used motor oil, it's toxic and doesn't work that well.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;

Even grocery store canola oil works well enough for steels like 5160 that don't need a "fast oil" like W1 or the 10xx steels do.

Brine and water are almost free, and technically correct for W1 and "water hardening" steels but a fast oil like Parks 50 and Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades.


Glue – Epoxy

Use a Fresh package, slow setting, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and well as seal out moisture.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive, blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean & no oil including fingerprints. Soap, Acetone & Alcohol, Blasting.
Clamp with moderate pressure= avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
These are well proven.
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential .
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than youfirst think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here

This is a special Google page that searches BF only.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

V21 Added Glue Oct 3, 2011.
 
Thank for the quick reply. I wish I had the money to buy steel and send it out to get treated but money is too tight atm. Ive got a month long lay off right now and we arent working full time during this off season.
So Im stuck using whats available to me for now.
 
Hi Squirrel Hunter!

There are a few down and dirty ways to make a quick assessment whether a steel will harden or not. Spark testing, but it takes some experience. Can you tell by the spark? It would probably help to have some known steel samples to use for comparison purposes.

An easy way is to take a piece of the mystery steel, heat it up past critical (no longer magnetic), quench it in water, clamp it in a vise and whack it with a hammer. High carbon steel will have hardened (perhaps even cracked when quenched) and break when whacked. Then you'll at least know you have something worth trying to figure out an effective heat treat procedure for: how hot to get it for quenching, what to quench it in, how to temper it? It can be lots of fun playing with reclaimed steel. I especially enjoy making chisels and what not from coil springs .

By-the-way...it might help to introduce yourself a bit more (name?) and put your location in your profile. Folks sometimes find out there's a bladesmith(s) in their area willing to help out.

All the best, Phil
 
Thank you for the link Phil. My name is Brian I go by squirrel to most people I know. I went ahead and filled out my profile as well. Im hoping to become an active member here. Thanks again
 
Many of those 4" blades were 1085 and were marked as such very close to the hub. Phils help will work. Frank
 
Squirrelhntr,
I'm not a blacksmith but I saw someone pretending to be a blacksmith on TV at least a couple of times (I think the show was "Gun Smoke"), I think this qualifies me to have an opinion.

I also am cheap, ahem,... I mean I am very cost conscious also and think I understand where you're coming from. When Life gives you lemons, you make lemonade. When Life gives you coal you make a coal fired forge. It may not be the best but it's a lot better than NO forge! I'll bet a guy could learn a lot while burning through a couple yards of coal and smacking hot steel with a hammer.

But about using the saw blade, unless you KNOW it can take and keep an edge you shouldn't use it to make something for your girl friend's dad. You'll get far, far, more brownie points by spending the money to buy some 1080 steel that you can heat treat yourself, in your coal fired forge. Use some of the mystery steel laying around to practice or play with, but when your reputation is on the line use the 1080 steel. If you feel obligated to use the saw blade, then that's a horse of a different color. In that case you buy the 1080 steel, and pretend to use the saw blade. Using your AWESOME ninja powers of deception and slight of hand, and working on it when no one is watching you, make the knife shaped objects using the known steel.

- Paul Meske
 
Almost a guarantee that it is not blade steel.

Also, heating coal is not forging coal.
 
Get some 1084 from Aldo at njsteelbaron.com it is great steel and easy to work with and heat treat. You can use lump charcoal if you can't get bituminous forge coal, you will go through a lot of it though, coal is cheaper. You can make your own charcoal but it is a nuisance. You can quench 1084 in Canola heated to 130 f until you can afford better quench oil

-Page
 
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