Newbie questions regarding kitchen knives

[pialia]

Hiya Kitchen dwellers!

I've more or less been into knives in general for a couple of years now, and I've got very high standards when it comes to their performance. Suffice to say I keep them all tip top sharp. The exception being in the kitchen. Now, I don't do most of the cooking, but I'm getting into it more and more and everytime I go to cut something and the "knife" turns whatever I'm cutting into a shredded mess I get kind of annoyed.

I think actually being able to process the food I'm going to cook would help me get into cooking more. So I figured I'd ask about some pros and cons about the many different designs out there. I'm already set on stainless since I'm not the only one using it and I can't be sure someone won't forget it in soapy water. What I have now is basically just some standard knife from IKEA or the like with a rubber handle. The design that has mainly caught my eye(although I have not handled one) is the Santoku.

Will this design suffice for an all-round type kitchen knife or would I be better off with something else? Also, what do you guys mainly use to hone your knives before use - I would imagine I'd lose a lot of bite over time if I just stuck to stropping.

Anyway, I'm open to all suggestions and consider me a complete newbie when it comes to this subject!

Thanks

Edit: I might add that I've been browsing around at chefknivestogo, but it all feels like a huge maze and I don't really know where to start. A few brand recommendations or such would probably get me off to a good start I'm looking to spend between $50-150, the Swedish customs will probably slap an additional amount onto that so I'm not aiming too high considering I don't really know what I want. If anyone knows of any good online stores within the EU I'd love to know about them. Most sites I've seen within Sweden tend to be more expensive than American ones even including taxes and fees.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Investigate into Hiromoto (blue super) or Konosuke HD(white #2) gyuto, eithe knife would be an awesome entry point into kitchen cutlery. A gyuto is a better all around general purpose knife than a santoku (missing a good tip for small & fine works).

 

[pialia]

Investigate into Hiromoto (blue super) or Konosuke HD(white #2) gyuto, eithe knife would be an awesome entry point into kitchen cutlery. A gyuto is a better all around general purpose knife than a santoku (missing a good tip for small & fine works).

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm not really into the all black handles with the three stainless pins and that pronounced curve on the end. I'd want something more along these lines:

This one, for example, is gorgeous. But it's almost $200 over my budget. It uses CPM 154 steel, is that what sets the price so high or? I really like the geometry of both the blade and handle on that one, so typical!

Does anyone have any other sites worth mentioning? I checked out all the models under CKTG's Gyuto section and this is really the only one that spoke to me. But I'm not really ready to spend $350 on my first kitchen knife.

The Konosuke 210mm Gyuto seems to have more of a pointy tip and less belly to work with:

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Put a custom handle on 'Richmond Ultimatum M390 No handle'. Frankly, get a budget killing knife to start out would not be prudence. I would get some thing good (profile, geometry, steel) then once you figure out your style & preference - go for an upgrade or custom.

Google-fu into JKI & JCK sites. lol - I dance around, try to avoid bfc infraction.

 

[watercrawl]

Haha....that's my handle. That Richmond Remedy is so expensive because it has a custom handle on it. I believe the stock Richmond Remedy was in the $200 range.

I don't think you're going to find a knife with in your budget range that isn't "all black handles with the three stainless pins" that is western handled.

A good choice might be the Tojiro wa-gyuto:

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/todpwa24.html

Another good site would be Japanese Chef's Knife or Japanese Knife Imports

 

[pialia]

Put a custom handle on 'Richmond Ultimatum M390 No handle'. Frankly, get a budget killing knife to start out would not be prudence. I would get some thing good (profile, geometry, steel) then once you figure out your style & preference - go for an upgrade or custom.

Google-fu into JKI & JCK sites. lol - I dance around, try to avoid bfc infraction.

Thanks for the reply, I think you're right in that I should find out what I like before biting the bullet.

Haha....that's my handle. That Richmond Remedy is so expensive because it has a custom handle on it. I believe the stock Richmond Remedy was in the $200 range.

I don't think you're going to find a knife with in your budget range that isn't "all black handles with the three stainless pins" that is western handled.

A good choice might be the Tojiro wa-gyuto:

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/todpwa24.html

Another good site would be Japanese Chef's Knife or Japanese Knife Imports

What can I say... excellent work I'll look into the other sites as well. Hopefully I can find something at least close to my budget that isn't so ordinary!

 

[pialia]

Found a beaut on JCK:

It's a Takeshi Saji 210mm Gyuto, nickel damascus with a VG-10 core. That's pretty standard in Japanese blades, right? The thing that got me kind of curious was the weight of it - 270g. That's nearly double the weight of other 210mm Gyutos I've been looking at. Is all that attributed to the nice handle?

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Pretty but
- vg10, a well balanced entry steel
- ouch no knuckle room
- pricey
- heavy, where is the knife balance point? Yeah stag/antler is heavy. However retain nice grip when wet, especially in blood.

I've a Asai Damascus in vg-10, not too bad once I thinned & put a better edge on it. I probably will give mine to sibbling and get something better in AS, m390, carbon, semi-stainless, oh just too many to choose from.

edit: oh wait - I already own kitchen knives in blue,skd, v2, sg2, white. let's call this 'passion' instead of 'addiction'

 

[pialia]

Pretty but
- vg10, a well balanced entry steel
- ouch no knuckle room
- pricey
- heavy, where is the knife balance point? Yeah stag/antler is heavy. However retain nice grip when wet, especially in blood.

I've a Asai Damascus in vg-10, not too bad once I thinned & put a better edge on it. I probably will give mine to sibbling and get something better in AS, m390, carbon, semi-stainless, oh just too many to choose from.

Good point about the knuckle room, that wouldn't even have occurred to me! I think most any of the steels I find in the $150ish knives will be such an upgrade from my current setup that I'll love it no matter what. I don't need M390 or any super steel like that for my first "expensive" all-round kitchen knife. As long as I can actually put a good edge on it, any steel will do fine as long as it's stainless. Are there any other common stainless steels being used besides VG-10 that are in the same price range?

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Good point about the knuckle room, that wouldn't even have occurred to me! I think most any of the steels I find in the $150ish knives will be such an upgrade from my current setup that I'll love it no matter what. I don't need M390 or any super steel like that for my first "expensive" all-round kitchen knife. As long as I can actually put a good edge on it, any steel will do fine as long as it's stainless. Are there any other common stainless steels being used besides VG-10 that are in the same price range?

See - Richmond Artifex 240mm Gyuto (I hear that the 240mm has better profile & geometry than 210mm). Just treat your 1st decent kitchen knife as a future give away, a stepping stone toward a better culinary - ok, at least make food prep cutting fun.

 

[pialia]

What's your opinion on the Shun Premier series? It looks like something inbetween a standard knife and a custom.

Seems like it has roughly the same height as their 7" Santoku, but still a nice tip for fine work.

 

[calvinw]

I don't mean to add confusion to your decision, but I'm going to go against the general opinion here. I personally prefer the santoku style. If I'm reaching for the large knife, it's because I'm slicing or chopping. I don't need a point for that, I want more blade on the board (that's the gist of the santoku design, most blade on board). If I need to stab/pierce something, I reach for a smaller knife. I just don't feel comfortable doing fine work with a 7" or 8" blade.

I usually recommend getting 2 knives - large and paring. For the large, I prefer a santoku.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

I've had Shun classics (and gave those away too), and no experience with the Premier series however the premier handle looks good. A heavy & pretty knife, I bet it would be hard to part with it later on. I prefer light laser.

There are better/expert opinions on Kitchen Knife Forums - go dig or query, I learned alot from there.

 

[pialia]

I don't mean to add confusion to your decision, but I'm going to go against the general opinion here. I personally prefer the santoku style. If I'm reaching for the large knife, it's because I'm slicing or chopping. I don't need a point for that, I want more blade on the board (that's the gist of the santoku design, most blade on board). If I need to stab/pierce something, I reach for a smaller knife. I just don't feel comfortable doing fine work with a 7" or 8" blade.

I usually recommend getting 2 knives - large and paring. For the large, I prefer a santoku.

Damn you! I really love the look of the Santoku, but I can't really tell what I'd prefer to handle since I haven't held one. Do you have any Santokus in my price range you think would be worth looking at? Or perhaps an opinion on the Shun Premier series in general? I really like the look of those knives. As mentioned earlier, I just don't see myself being happy with something that looks completely ordinary.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

I don't mean to add confusion to your decision, but I'm going to go against the general opinion here. I personally prefer the santoku style. If I'm reaching for the large knife, it's because I'm slicing or chopping. I don't need a point for that, I want more blade on the board (that's the gist of the santoku design, most blade on board). If I need to stab/pierce something, I reach for a smaller knife. I just don't feel comfortable doing fine work with a 7" or 8" blade.

I usually recommend getting 2 knives - large and paring. For the large, I prefer a santoku.

:thumbup: It's all about what work for you not public general consensus. I don't like wash & dry cutleries, so I pick a knife to prep for the entire prep (except for heavy duty or boning knife to break down chicken or rib). This lazy soul onetime used a 365mm (14.5") gyuto (converted from a watermellon knife) tip for garlics & shallots, insane - no, just lazy.

edit: I agree about santoku friendly profile for chopping & slicing, nice belly; flat area and a short tip.

 

[pialia]

It seems to be really hard to get any decent specs on these knives, it's making it hard to rule out some knives and consider others... Most don't even list something as basic as the weight of the knife. Thickness I can understand because of how thin most of them are, but still. I'd like to know the basics if I'm spending ~$150 on something :/

 

[pialia]

I don't mean to add confusion to your decision, but I'm going to go against the general opinion here. I personally prefer the santoku style. If I'm reaching for the large knife, it's because I'm slicing or chopping. I don't need a point for that, I want more blade on the board (that's the gist of the santoku design, most blade on board). If I need to stab/pierce something, I reach for a smaller knife. I just don't feel comfortable doing fine work with a 7" or 8" blade.

I usually recommend getting 2 knives - large and paring. For the large, I prefer a santoku.

Do you have any preferred specs on your Santoku?

I'm looking at the Hattori HD-5 Series 170mm Santoku, it's 3mm thick, 46mm wide and 185g.

I just measured the thickness of the cheapo knife I'm using now, it's 1.8mm, but the width is probably under 40mm. Will I notice a big difference in cutting performance with the thicker Santoku? I've got my eye on a Ryusen RD-2 Santoku that's 2mm, perhaps I'd be better off with that.

Thoughts?

 

[calvinw]

Do you have any preferred specs on your Santoku?

I'm looking at the Hattori HD-5 Series 170mm Santoku, it's 3mm thick, 46mm wide and 185g.

I just measured the thickness of the cheapo knife I'm using now, it's 1.8mm, but the width is probably under 40mm. Will I notice a big difference in cutting performance with the thicker Santoku? I've got my eye on a Ryusen RD-2 Santoku that's 2mm, perhaps I'd be better off with that.

Thoughts?

If you're new to the kitchen and haven't developed your own preferences, and you can't handle the knives in person, then go with what looks good to your eye. The knives you're looking at in this price range are fine knives. I know pro cooks who don't own anything near as nice. A bit lighter for speed, a bit heavier for chopping, a bit thinner for slicing, a bit thicker for occasional cleaving - of the ones you're considering, all will cut a tomato just fine. Go ahead and pick the one that's pleasing to your eye. Once you start using it regularly, your preferences will develop around it. And other knives will start to feel weird to you.

For what it's worth, I personally prefer thin and light.

 

[whitedoor]

The other alternative is to re-profile you cheap knives and learn how to use a steel every time you use a knife. I'd get a smooth steel or a large ceramic rod and a diamond steel. Use the smooth most of the time and the diamond when you knives begin to feel or look dull.

There are many moderately priced knives that are just fine if you use that regimen. If you insist on a Japanese knife, check out the inexpensive line (hand-forged
on Shikoku) sold by justknives10l.com and some other places. They are carbon steel so you'll have to educate the other people who might use them. I have a santuko from that series that is very nice and even has a point. They sell for under $50 dollars.

If you are set on getting a more expensive Japanese knife, remember that most of them (excluding the deba) are rather delicate and easily damaged. The will stay sharp for a long time but need skillful sharpening when they get dull. It is usually advised not to use a steel on them (particularly the standard grooved ones). Also, Damascus steel is beautiful but doesn't add to the performance of the knife but does add price. In fact, most of the Shun Damascus knives I've sharpened for friends have been damaged by chipping.

 

[calvinw]

This is an excellent presentation by Murray Carter given at the Oregon knife show this year about the fundamental difference between Japanese and Western knives:

[video=youtube;mh1HjoSoUAE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh1HjoSoUAE[/video]