Newbie sharpening questions

[Spats McGee]

First and foremost, thank you all in advance for any guidance y'all can give me here.

Second, to the BF mods, if I've put this in the wrong place, please move it to the correct forum and accept my apologies for any inconvenience I may have caused.

Third, I'd like to give a little background in the hopes that it will help you help me. I grew up in small-town Arkansas. Pretty much every boy my age was taught to sharpen a knife. I never did it very much, but my dad did teach me the basics. I carried a pocketknife up until about my mid-20s, when I quit carrying one, for whatever reason. Anyway, fast forward about 30 years. I decided I wanted to carry a pocketknife again, but I wanted a better one than what I had on hand. So I bought a Spyderco Native 5 and did some horse-trading to get a Benchmade Sequel. It wasn't long before I decided I wanted to re-learn sharpening by hand. My first attempts were monumentally unsuccessful. As you might imagine, after 30+ years of not doing any sharpening, I had a devil of a time trying to hold a consistent angle on a water stone that I bought. So I went out and bought a Gatco system with the diamond hones. After much cursing and the purchase of some friction tape, I've gotten to where I can work with it. My edges are reasonably sharp, but they're certainly not shaving sharp. I blame my patience more than the system at this point.

Next up, I will be buying some Arkansas stones. I don't plan to buy the cheapest ones I can find This brings me to my first (probably very silly) question. The Gatco oil is blue. While I'm not particularly OCD, I'd just as soon not have my Arkansas stones turn blue. I'm willing to buy different (clear) oil to avoid that. Does anyone know if the Gatco oil will stain stones? I'm not concerned about the Gatco plates.

Then I get to the question about knives on which I should practice. I ran out to Goodwill and bought about a half dozen knives for a couple of bucks. That was a bad idea, but at least it was a cheap one. They stink to practice on, even now that the Gatco clamp is more cooperative. So my next idea (on which I'd like input before I spend money) is to hit ebay, looking for used or damaged knives. I don't mean "horribly damaged," but I'd be ok with some surface rust, or a minor chip out of the edge. I'm thinking of both fixed blade (think kitchen knives) and folders (such as old Bucks and Schrades). Does this sound like a reasonably cost-effective way to get more knives to practice on? I'm not about to risk my wife's good kitchen knife. Not yet, anyway.

Finally, supersteels. I've spent some time reading various internet articles about blade steels. It's all very interesting, at least up until the point that my head starts swimming. I freely admit I'm a Word Nerd, not a scientist. Is there some commonly-accepted group of steels that y'all would consider to be "supersteels?" The difference between sharpening my Sequel (154CM) and my Native (CPM-S30V) was tangible. The Native definitely took longer to sharpen, but neither was all that difficult. I just don't know if S30V qualifies as a "supersteel."

Thank you all in advance.
Spats

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I wouldn't be too concerned about the blue Gatco oil. It's likely just mineral oil. And whatever staining might occur on your Arkansas stones will be more noticeably affected by the black swarf generated, regardless of the oil's blue tint. Oil stones that get used will always darken a bit over time, due to that black swarf. With that being said, you can still still clean oil stones pretty effectively with dish soap & water, and a stiff scrub brush. The dish soap does a good job with the oil itself. And some/most of the dark swarf can be cleaned away as well with the scrub brush.

As for knives to practice on, simple carbon steel blades, as in older Schrades in 1095, and from Case in their CV steel, will respond very well to simple sharpening media like Arkansas stones and basic aluminum oxide oil stones (Norton's India, for example). And for stainless, any of Buck's relatively recent blades in 420HC (@ 57-59 HRC) will sharpen up nicely, as will Case's 'Tru-Sharp' blades in 420HC (55-57 HRC). Some relatively older Buck blades in 425M, in the transition period between their 440C and 420HC, are essentially indistinguishable from their later 420HC blades and also sharpen up nicely on simple stones like 420HC does. Other knives from Victorinox or Opinel aren't all that expensive either, and their blade steels are very good. If you run into one of Buck's older blades in 440C, those will be harder to sharpen on Arkansas stones, due to the greater wear-resistance of the 440C and also due to the much thicker edge grinds on those older Buck blades.

And 'supersteel' is basically a buzzword subject to interpretation. What it means is dependant upon what you're otherwise used to working with. I wouldn't read too much into that term, by itself. Instead, I'd think more about the varying degrees of wear resistance brought by the presence of very hard carbides in such steels. As a rule of thumb, any steel containing more than about 3-4% vanadium, along with 1% or more carbon, will usually be more noticeably wear-resistant due to the vanadium carbides in the alloy. Think of steels like S30V/90V/110V, etc. for those. And some steels with both a lot of carbon content AND chromium content can have significant wear resistance due to the formation of large chromium carbides. Steels like 440C, 154CM, D2 and ZDP-189 fall into that category. The steels with more vanadium content will respond better to diamond/cbn sharpening. And steels like 440C, D2, and ZDP-189 can be sharpened on aluminum oxide stones of good quality, silicon carbide (SiC) or diamond. D2 responds best in the finishing stages to diamond refinement, including polishing on strops, as diamond handles D2s very large carbides (50+ microns) better in shaping and thinning them near the edge.

 

[3D Anvil]

Important concepts:

1. There's a big difference between reprofiling an edge (changing the existing edge angle) and sharpening at the existing edge angle. Specifically, reprofiling involves taking off a lot more steel, so you'll want to start with a coarse stone (120-220 grit, or coarse or xtra course diamond plate). If you're just resharpening, you can usually start with 500-1000 grit stone (or fine plate), depending on how dull the knife is.

2. Everything else is maintaining a consistent angle, developing a burr all along the edge on both sides, and completely removing the burr.

Sounds easy, but it does take practice. The good news is that anyone can do it, if they practice enough.

I think the best way to learn freehand sharpening is to see how people who are really good at it do it, and then ... practice, practice, practice. Preferably on cheap knives until you get comfortable with it.

Here's a couple guys who know what they're doing and who do a pretty good job explaining it step by step:

 

[Ourorboros]

There is a website called zknives.com that gives the composition of many steels. Also you can just search steel name + composition.
As Obsessed with Edges said, anything with about 4% Vanadium is going to need diamond stones.
Also tool steels can take time, though they can be sharpened with various aluminum-oxide stones.

 

[Spats McGee]

Thank you all. Clearly, I still have a lot to learn about steels. That said, what y'all posted was very enlightening.

I still intend to get some Arkansas stones, but after quite a bit of reading and watching of videos, I decided to wait a little bit on those. I'm thinking that diamond plates may be a better value in terms of versatility for the money.

 

[Papilio]

I don't want to talk you into Arkansas stones. If you still want to have one, you could get diamond stones, maybe coarse to fine grit, and then take a very fine Arkansas stone for honing.

 

[Boattale]

I learned to freehand sharpen on a Buck 110 and the stones in a Buck sharpening kit. This was in 1972 in the South China Sea on the deck of the USS Mobile. I had nothing but time. And time is what it took me and is probably going to take you. It is a learned skill with muscle memory involved. Technique is much more important than what a person sharpens the knife on whether diamond, arkansas, water stone, you name it. Hang with it and it will come to you.

Edit: Dang it just hit me that was 50 years ago now. Time flies.

 

[Spats McGee]

I don't want to talk you into Arkansas stones. If you still want to have one, you could get diamond stones, maybe coarse to fine grit, and then take a very fine Arkansas stone for honing.

It seems to me that an Arkansas guy like me really ought to have an Arkansas stone or two. I'm sure I'll get one soon enough. For the time being, I ordered this set to get me started.

I learned to freehand sharpen on a Buck 110 and the stones in a Buck sharpening kit. This was in 1972 in the South China Sea on the deck of the USS Mobile. I had nothing but time. And time is what it took me and is probably going to take you. It is a learned skill with muscle memory involved. Technique is much more important than what a person sharpens the knife on whether diamond, arkansas, water stone, you name it. Hang with it and it will come to you.

Edit: Dang it just hit me that was 50 years ago now. Time flies.

Once upon a time, I sorta knew how to do this. Now I just have to relearn. I can already tell you that my biggest problem is likely to be patience.

 

[Papilio]

Arkansas stones have a "charm" manmade stones don't have. Those diamond stones are a good way to start. You can try if you like them, if they work for you. And if it works you can think about gettinga finer stone. Whatever this is.

 

[Spats McGee]

As an interesting aside, I just unearthed a Tri-Hone from the Washita Mountain Whetstone Company while clearing stuff out of a room we call the Room of Requirement. I had forgotten that I grabbed it from my parents' place a few months ago. It's probably 30+ years old, and was still in the plastic. Just as interesting, at least for a Law Nerd like me, the WMWC lists Danny Kirschman as the registered agent on the Secretary of State's website. It looks like that's Dan of Dan's Whetstones. I don't guess I'll need to buy Arkansas stones right away.

 

[Spats McGee]

I strongly suspect this one falls into "Stupid Newbie Questions," but does honing oil go bad? I ask because the honing oil that was packaged with the above-mentioned Tri-Hone looks darker than the pics I see online of the same stuff. Mind you, I don't really think it will hurt my stones, but I figure I'd rather ask and look a little stupid now than actually do something even more stupid later.

 

[sickpuppy1]

Many oils darken over time due to minute amounts of moisture in the air. shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Papilio]

If they are from Dan's, they should be excellent stones.
Arkansas stones are oilstones. But - if you are not sure about the oil qualitiy - it is possible to use them with water and some dish liquid. But once you use oil, you can't use water. Nonetheless oil works better than water.

 

[Spats McGee]

Many oils darken over time due to minute amounts of moisture in the air. shouldn't be an issue.

If they are from Dan's, they should be excellent stones.
Arkansas stones are oilstones. But - if you are not sure about the oil qualitiy - it is possible to use them with water and some dish liquid. But once you use oil, you can't use water. Nonetheless oil works better than water.

Thank you both.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I strongly suspect this one falls into "Stupid Newbie Questions," but does honing oil go bad? I ask because the honing oil that was packaged with the above-mentioned Tri-Hone looks darker than the pics I see online of the same stuff. Mind you, I don't really think it will hurt my stones, but I figure I'd rather ask and look a little stupid now than actually do something even more stupid later.

It shouldn't matter if the oil changes color a little bit. It'll still serve the purpose it was made for, and you'll never notice any difference in how it works.

Mineral oils that are more purified, like the 'USP' grade stuff used for laxative purposes, cosmetics and for use around food/kitchens, will remain more clear & colorless for much longer. It's also completely odorless. Other mineral oils may not be purified to the same degree, and will often retain some odor of petroleum product. These are the ones that I've noticed changing color (darker) over time.

 

[Spats McGee]

Thanks, Obsessed with Edges . I went ahead and used that oil on my Tri-hone today. Maybe not well, but I used it.

 

[Albin]

Important concepts:

1. There's a big difference between reprofiling an edge (changing the existing edge angle) and sharpening at the existing edge angle. Specifically, reprofiling involves taking off a lot more steel, so you'll want to start with a coarse stone (120-220 grit, or coarse or xtra course diamond plate). If you're just resharpening, you can usually start with 500-1000 grit stone (or fine plate), depending on how dull the knife is.

2. Everything else is maintaining a consistent angle, developing a burr all along the edge on both sides, and completely removing the burr.

Sounds easy, but it does take practice. The good news is that anyone can do it, if they practice enough.

I think the best way to learn freehand sharpening is to see how people who are really good at it do it, and then ... practice, practice, practice. Preferably on cheap knives until you get comfortable with it.

Here's a couple guys who know what they're doing and who do a pretty good job explaining it step by step:

I like that Outdoors guy. He seems like a pretty nice guy.

 

[Spats McGee]

Next silly newbie question: Is honing oil really anything special? I've seen a lot of references to mineral oil, and I suspect (without having price-checked) that I could buy plain mineral oil a lot cheaper than something labeled "honing oil."

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Next silly newbie question: Is honing oil really anything special? I've seen a lot of references to mineral oil, and I suspect (without having price-checked) that I could buy plain mineral oil a lot cheaper than something labeled "honing oil."

Most 'honing oil' is just mineral oil. Some sellers might add a pigment to color it and make it uniquely theirs, and then resell it in small bottles at an inflated price.

BUT, the better honing oils will often be a lighter, thinner grade of mineral oil and sometimes food-safe rated ('USP' grade) as well. Norton's Sharpening Stone Oil is an example, and I tend to favor it for those attributes. The light & thin character of the oil makes for better feedback on the stones - so there's an obvious, tactile difference in using it, as compared to many other products.

But bottom line, any mineral oil product will do just fine. So-called 'cutting board oil' is mineral oil, as is the product included in small bottles for things like electric hair clippers/shavers and so-called 'sewing machine oil'. And as an alternate to Norton's oil, I've liked using a food-safe mineral oil I found at a restaurant supply store, marketed for use in the maintenance of food-processing equipment like meat slicers, etc. Found it in 16 oz. bottles priced at around $8 or so, which isn't bad at all (I bought TWO of those - still haven't used it all). That's about the same price ballpark as the Norton oil in their small 4-1/2 fl. oz. can.

There are some other lubricant 'solutions' used for sharpening stones that are apparently a non-petroleum product, maybe detergent-based. And of course, one can very cheaply buy the old standby, the 'intestinal lubricant' (laxative) variety at the grocery store or pharmacy. It's a thicker, more viscous grade of food-safe mineral oil. And it's cheap too - the last time I bought some of that, it was about $2 for a 16 fl. oz. bottle. It's handy for unfilled, very thirsty oil stones that would otherwise drink up too much of the pricier stuff.

 

[gordyt]

Yea what Obsessed wrote. You don't need to pay a lot of money for food (or pharmaceutical) grade mineral oil. Heck, you can buy a gallon of "Ideal Animal Health, Mineral Oil Light" for $27.99 from Tractor Supply. Great for any oil stone and also (as mentioned) for conditioning wooden cutting boards.

For all of my oil stones I use this mixture (which came from one of the youtube folks, maybe Jef Jewel our Outdoors55, can't remember now):

- 1 part mineral oil
- 4 parts water
- less than 1 part dawn dish detergent -- just enough to keep it all emulsified.

Everything stays nice and clean and it works quite well.