Next Big Thing?

Daniel Fairly Knives

Daniel Fairly Knives

Full Time Knifemaker
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Discussion! Next big thing in knifemaking/knives in general?

I'm seeing some really innovative new designs, the newer folder that doesn't use tools/hardware is pretty wild.

I'm personally experimenting with new materials... and always messing with older advanced methods like heat treating Ti alloys that are hard to get, etc. Right now you can learn anything at a super advanced pace compared to just ten years ago and it is pretty exciting.
 
The Biggest Change:
What I see changing most is mechanization and automation.
CNC mills and other tools do the kind of shaping that took highly skilled makers hours. They ensure repeatability and can crank out dozens a day.
Lasers and CNC engravers do work that took a skilled person days to do. An elaborate scrimshaw design on a scale can be done by a laser from a photograph in minutes.

I realize that it takes training and certain skills to program and set up these tools, and you still have to do some finishing, but they have created a whole new world of very fancy knives that could not have been built in the past. Some are not far from being kit knives.*
Look at the new knife photos on the pages in the back of a Blade magazine from 2000 and look at the knives there now.

I also understand that there have been hobby machinists making knives for a long time, but they were usually one-off designs (e.g., Edmund Davidson). Almost all of thos folks started making knives the same as everyone else did before moving to milling. They also milled by manually setting up the mill. This new CNC trend is far different.

* I know a few folks who are fantastic machinists. They get a cheap knife like they want to build, take it apart, scan in all the measurements, make a few adjustments, and mill out a finished blade needing only some finish sanding. Their mill also does the makers mark and logo. The machine does the tang holes and threads them. The textured scales are milled and drilled the same way. This is all done in a milling machine in an enclosed cabinet with intense coolant spray. Some others draw a knife with a CAD program and download it to the CNC machines. To me, this isn't far from being a kit knife. One of these makers has never ground a blade from scratch by hand ... ever. He has the HT farmed out, too. Another asked me to teach him forging ... after a few hours he said, "Oh, HELL no! I can do that in 5 minutes on a mill."

The Second New Realm of Upcoming Knifemaking:
I firmly believe the new and improved grinding and shop equipment, dust extraction, and supplies and materials (next paragraph) are a major change for those who make custom knives by hand.
Carbide platens, mist cooling, special work rests, surface grinders, multiple grinders and disc grinders, multiple band saws and drill presses, etc., etc., etc. When I started making knives Blade magazine would not be published for more than a decade. Wayne Goddard's "$50 Knife Shop" wouldn't come out for almost half a century (but it was about right in what it took to make a simple knife with home-built equipment.)
Today $5000 is the starting point for most makers, and once the bug bites it quickly reaches $10,000 or more. Many makers who are basically hobby makers have over $50,000 in tools and supplies.
When forging my first knife in 1961 with a ball peen hammer and an improvised forge, I couldn't have imagined spending what I have by now on a hobby. I have a wonderful wife who is glad I have a hobby that I enjoy at home, but I think she would faint if she knew how much I have spent on knifemaking in the last 30 years. Of course, today a McDonnald's server makes more an hour than many made a day in 1961. (My dad was an E-9 with 20 years in the Navy and made $100 a week, with no pay raise from 1958 to 1962.)

Third Big Change for Modern Knifemakers:
Materials are readily available. The internet spawned suppliers and availability from anywhere in the world. I can order steel from Germany or England, or Aldo Bruno and cheap supplies and tools from China. Up until very recently, all you had was a list of probably alloys for commonly found objects like leaf springs and crowbars. New space-age metals and materials have taken over the market for "The Next Best Thing". Special alloys, stainless steels, zirconium, titanium, and composite handle materials in hundreds of patterns. Why would anyone make a knife from 1095 anymore if they want it to be a successful New Model. Even marketing has changed. It was 1095, 440-C, 26C3, etc. NOw it is Magnacut, Wolfram Special, XP-1000, etc.
 
I'm seeing knives getting WAY better than they used to be on the high end (and by beginners!) with loads of competition. i'm thinking the next big thing wil be liner locks. That's kind of a joke but not really... everybody is tired of alternative and overbuilt stuff. There is so much wild stuff out there already especially coming from China. We will see more forged steel and Ti make it on to the CNC on the really high end. I'm personally working on the materials end with some really out there stuff. I also do everything from forging to CNC work and it all has its ups and downs.


Stacy I agree and disagree at the same time, lol I think I took debate class too seriously. I really appreciate your post.

- not many machinists are also good designers... different aptitude. It's not like they can't be but I don't see it a lot.

- tech tools like lasers bring expectations of a much lower price and way more competition. They also take away all of your time with steep and ever changing learning curve. I can cut Kydex for 30 sheaths on my cnc router while I grind other stuff though... but it took me a couple of years to learn the machine and software well enough to do a good job.

- easier availability but "nothing is sacred anymore" as a result

- CNC's... lot's of work to be lazy (I like them! I just run a router for 2D scales and kydex though... plus I make knives for money and just happen to love it. I'm setting up a mill next.)

- CNC's are like a prep cook, it still takes a good chef to make the meal great

- silly high costs to compete

- niches for everything... people really want to see someone make a knife from junk in their yard more than with a cnc machine too!

Remember I'm a high volume maker, my work usually leans to the midtech side without going that far. I think if I just made knives for fun I'd just do it from scratch (and still make about half of them that way) but even simpler... I used just my 2 brick forge and 1x30 grinder to make nice knives for fun on "break" before.




DanF what's up! I know your name from back in the day here, it is a bit familiar!


Lorien no the answer is your super cool hidden tang construction and resulting work!!! Seriously dude, wow!
 
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It's a pipe dream, but I hope the next big thing is excellent hand work.

Machining a knife takes talent, but it's basically learning to program. Hand making anything well requires skill and talent.
Knifemaking has always used improvements-from chipping flint, to copper, to iron, to steel, from individuals, to factories with hand work. Now knives are made on machines and the only skill necessary is using a screwdriver.

It's the way of the world, but to me it's sad that no one wants to do hand work anymore. Sheffield, Solingen, Maniago, Toledo knifemaking has all failed because they can not find anyone who wants to be a cutler. I have tried to find a protege for my work for years. Kids can't comprehend working with their hands and if they do-it's simply a job that they take no interest in. My work is a little different, as I restore/repair antique knives. I make a few now and then, but the money is in repair. You can tell a young man that he can build a shop in his back yard and if he has the interest, aptitude and develops the skill that in 4-5 years he could be making 200 grand a year (gross profit)- they have no comprehension of what you are saying. Yes, being a dinosaur is a lonesome thing-but when you are one of the last dinosaurs you can make a lot of money.
 
One thing that has changed the "Learning Curve" for CNC programming and digital drawing is the kids today are often taught the basics in school. Many of us older guys are still trying to figure out how to get the two dots to stop blinking on the VCR. (ask your dad or grandpa if an explanation is needed)

Fun story:
Years ago, a fellow next to me at a gathering pointed to a clock with the blinking colon that indicated the seconds. He said his father was the inventor of that feature. He had developed an IC circuit that would blink the colon back in the 70's in order to save power on the chip. It was just a fun circuit with no real use. His company patented it anyway. Life went on and he never thought about it again. Years later, a BIG watch company put out digital watches. The colon was blinking at 60Hz. The company claimed that they developed the feature and started suing everyone with a blinking colon. There was an eventual settlement for the patent rights for something like $00.001USD royalty for every watch made. The fellow who developed it never made a penny, but his old company made millions. The "big watch company" who stole it made billions.
 
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Bill DeShivs said:
It's a pipe dream, but I hope the next big thing is excellent hand work.

Machining a knife takes talent, but it's basically learning to program. Hand making anything well requires skill and talent.
Knifemaking has always used improvements-from chipping flint, to copper, to iron, to steel, from individuals, to factories with hand work. Now knives are made on machines and the only skill necessary is using a screwdriver.

It's the way of the world, but to me it's sad that no one wants to do hand work anymore. Sheffield, Solingen, Maniago, Toledo knifemaking has all failed because they can not find anyone who wants to be a cutler. I have tried to find a protege for my work for years. Kids can't comprehend working with their hands and if they do-it's simply a job that they take no interest in. My work is a little different, as I restore/repair antique knives. I make a few now and then, but the money is in repair. You can tell a young man that he can build a shop in his back yard and if he has the interest, aptitude and develops the skill that in 4-5 years he could be making 200 grand a year (gross profit)- they have no comprehension of what you are saying. Yes, being a dinosaur is a lonesome thing-but when you are one of the last dinosaurs you can make a lot of money.
Click to expand...
I think the pendulum will swing back towards quality handcrafting eventually. The new CNC knives just don’t have soul and they can need a little tuning sometimes if you really look at them. The problem right now is a lot of non-machinist makers don’t try hard enough to get good at the fit and finish work. When I go to shows I see a lot of knives that are 98% good and 2% trash from a fit and finish standpoint and that 2% sticks out like a sore tooth.
 
Bill DeShivs said:
It's a pipe dream, but I hope the next big thing is excellent hand work.

Machining a knife takes talent, but it's basically learning to program. Hand making anything well requires skill and talent.
Knifemaking has always used improvements-from chipping flint, to copper, to iron, to steel, from individuals, to factories with hand work. Now knives are made on machines and the only skill necessary is using a screwdriver.

It's the way of the world, but to me it's sad that no one wants to do hand work anymore. Sheffield, Solingen, Maniago, Toledo knifemaking has all failed because they can not find anyone who wants to be a cutler. I have tried to find a protege for my work for years. Kids can't comprehend working with their hands and if they do-it's simply a job that they take no interest in. My work is a little different, as I restore/repair antique knives. I make a few now and then, but the money is in repair. You can tell a young man that he can build a shop in his back yard and if he has the interest, aptitude and develops the skill that in 4-5 years he could be making 200 grand a year (gross profit)- they have no comprehension of what you are saying. Yes, being a dinosaur is a lonesome thing-but when you are one of the last dinosaurs you can make a lot of money.
Click to expand...
I agree! I think the top guys I know are doing that... most use cnc to profile but who cares how basic stuff is done as they have mastered that by hand too. Factories are different for sure, even with nice custom knives.

I look at knifemaking like some sort of training, I will try to grind 30 knives with the same exact grinds,,, ht as many as I can stand to, really put in the repetitive work as most of the shop hours... but I still try to learn the new tech too.
 
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Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
One thing that has changed the "Learning Curve" for CNC programming and digital drawing is the kids today are often taught the basics in school. Many of us older guys are still trying to figure out how to get the two dots to stop blinking on the VCR. (ask your dad or grandpa if an explanation is needed)

Fun story:
Years ago, a fellow next to me at a gathering pointed to a clock with the blinking colon that indicated the seconds. He said his father was the inventor of that feature. He had developed an IC circuit that would blink the colon back in the 70's in order to save power on the chip. It was just a fun circuit with no real use. His company patented it anyway. Life went on and he never thought about it again. Years later, a BIG watch company put out digital watches. The colon was blinking at 60Hz. The company claimed that they developed the feature and started suing everyone with a blinking colon. There was an eventual settlement for the patent rights for something like $00.001USD royalty for every watch made. The fellow who developed it never made a penny, but his old company made millions. The "big watch company" who stole it made billions.
Click to expand...
I still have a VCR! I remember getting the betamax and that sony tv with a corded remote...

I grew up with computers just getting good and learned along the way but none of it is really that helpful... CAD programs are just terrible to learn! Mine is constantly updating and the thing just ticks me off to no end. Right now my waterjet guy has a 3D scanner and you can just send him knives you make (g10 profiles), he scans them in and can cut the profile. I'm great at 2D CAD though, just clueless when it comes to CAM and run by the book for that. There is very little learning now that is static, these new programs are constantly changing the way you do everything so you never really master the thing anyways.
 
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ScarFoot said:
I think the pendulum will swing back towards quality handcrafting eventually. The new CNC knives just don’t have soul and they can need a little tuning sometimes if you really look at them. The problem right now is a lot of non-machinist makers don’t try hard enough to get good at the fit and finish work. When I go to shows I see a lot of knives that are 98% good and 2% trash from a fit and finish standpoint and that 2% sticks out like a sore tooth.
Click to expand...
I was at Blade Dallas and thought most knives met a high standard of fit and finish... at some smaller shows not so much. I did see some stuff like that though, especially from the "hardcore operator" kind of guys.
 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
I was at Blade Dallas and thought most knives met a high standard of fit and finish... at some smaller shows not so much. I did see some stuff like that though, especially from the "hardcore operator" kind of guys.
Click to expand...
I can see that at Blade show. I do local/in-state stuff and a lot of guys who have been “doing it for years” seem to have forgotten some of the basics. Alabama has a fairly robust knife making scene. Some are excellent and the rest need to pay closer attention to what the excellent ones are doing.
 
Bill DeShivs said:
but it's basically learning to program
Click to expand...
As a machinist whose bread and butter is CNC work I must kindly disagree with this. :) The absolute easiest thing in CNC machining is learning to program, at least simple programming that is. Modern CAM software's make generating simple programs extremely easy. Being able to read programs (it's like another language), utilize sub programs, write custom macros etc. is much more complicated and I would bet that 95% of CNC machinists lack tremendously in those skills.

Building fixtures and machining strategies along with knowledge of cutting tools and materials is where the challenge is. Any machinist worth his salt has a much broader range of material and cutting tool geometry knowledge than any knife maker will ever need to know.

Running CNC machines also takes a lot of confidence, they are powerful and fast machines capable of destroying themselves in seconds if used improperly. A CNC machine and program is worthless without the proper knowledge and skill.

A craftsman relies heavily on his hands. I would say CNC machinists rely on their ears more than anything. Just a different type of skill.

That said I completely agree with you Bill that quality hand work should be embraced more. It pains me to see the hand skills being replaced with CNC work. I know CNC machinists who will spend hours building something that could've been made by hand on a grinder in minutes. Not only do they lack the skills to do it by hand but they lack the mindset to even consider doing it. One off custom knives will always be the best of the best and they can almost always be made quicker and better in the hands of a skilled craftsman than in a CNC.

As far as the next big thing in knife making I will add in 3D Printers. The day will come when even the blades can be 3D Printed will excellent quality.
 

Bill DeShivs said:
It's a pipe dream, but I hope the next big thing is excellent hand work.

Machining a knife takes talent, but it's basically learning to program. Hand making anything well requires skill and talent.
Knifemaking has always used improvements-from chipping flint, to copper, to iron, to steel, from individuals, to factories with hand work. Now knives are made on machines and the only skill necessary is using a screwdriver.

It's the way of the world, but to me it's sad that no one wants to do hand work anymore. Sheffield, Solingen, Maniago, Toledo knifemaking has all failed because they can not find anyone who wants to be a cutler. I have tried to find a protege for my work for years. Kids can't comprehend working with their hands and if they do-it's simply a job that they take no interest in. My work is a little different, as I restore/repair antique knives. I make a few now and then, but the money is in repair. You can tell a young man that he can build a shop in his back yard and if he has the interest, aptitude and develops the skill that in 4-5 years he could be making 200 grand a year (gross profit)- they have no comprehension of what you are saying. Yes, being a dinosaur is a lonesome thing-but when you are one of the last dinosaurs you can make a lot of money.
Click to expand...
This reminds me of the scene on Yellowstone where they are admiring the craftsmanship of the old guy that hand makes spurs. One says "Ya, when he's gone, so are all the legends. And ain't nobody trying to take their place." I hope there will always be up and coming Legends in the knife making world.
 
I saw this in other industries... Recent college kids with marketing degrees start an industry.....they think they know something better. Drawing pamphlets and T-shirts and bumper stickers isn't the same thing as Making something for real. Yes I know you have a YouTube channel....so now you are an expert. Ha.

Saying CNC knives are cold, lifeless, and stale....is one thing.
Wait until the designs are made from algorithms? Chatgpt.knife.com


I agree about the pendulum. People aren't wanting to buy just knives. They buy the stories.... The brand. The person's behind the brand. Real People doing, & making Real things...... Not just beeps and buzzes from robots. Otherwise, just go to Wal-Mart 2037 for your 3D printed tactical bushcraft wonder.....If they let you?
Do you have the appropriate Green Credits???



Handmade knives are going to become More sought after.....although, it's going to get worse before it gets better.

*edit to add.
I love my tungsten platen
 
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I'm just hoping this put loads of chromium in the alloy thing doesn't catch on :P

I would like to see more variety in approaches; different people making lots of knives in different ways
 
Contender Machine said:
As a machinist whose bread and butter is CNC work I must kindly disagree with this. :) The absolute easiest thing in CNC machining is learning to program, at least simple programming that is. Modern CAM software's make generating simple programs extremely easy. Being able to read programs (it's like another language), utilize sub programs, write custom macros etc. is much more complicated and I would bet that 95% of CNC machinists lack tremendously in those skills.

Building fixtures and machining strategies along with knowledge of cutting tools and materials is where the challenge is. Any machinist worth his salt has a much broader range of material and cutting tool geometry knowledge than any knife maker will ever need to know.

Running CNC machines also takes a lot of confidence, they are powerful and fast machines capable of destroying themselves in seconds if used improperly. A CNC machine and program is worthless without the proper knowledge and skill.

A craftsman relies heavily on his hands. I would say CNC machinists rely on their ears more than anything. Just a different type of skill.

That said I completely agree with you Bill that quality hand work should be embraced more. It pains me to see the hand skills being replaced with CNC work. I know CNC machinists who will spend hours building something that could've been made by hand on a grinder in minutes. Not only do they lack the skills to do it by hand but they lack the mindset to even consider doing it. One off custom knives will always be the best of the best and they can almost always be made quicker and better in the hands of a skilled craftsman than in a CNC.

As far as the next big thing in knife making I will add in 3D Printers. The day will come when even the blades can be 3D Printed will excellent quality.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%. Repeatibility is the only "easy" thing in CNC and if it were that easy everybody would be making the highest end stuff around.

3D printers are a must have around here, I have mine going all the time. I use them for everything from prototyping to making packaging.
 
Gene Kimmi said:
This reminds me of the scene on Yellowstone where they are admiring the craftsmanship of the old guy that hand makes spurs. One says "Ya, when he's gone, so are all the legends. And ain't nobody trying to take their place." I hope there will always be up and coming Legends in the knife making world.
Click to expand...

I bet because of the show there are more spur makers than ever now! I have always been into it and was wondering what was going on.
 
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