Nice knife - what am I supposed to do with this thing?

not2sharp

Platinum Member
Joined
Jun 29, 1999
Messages
20,419
It shouldn’t be a surprise to any of you that I am fascinated by knives. The variety of these tools domestically, historically or culturally is endless. From shards of rock to latest innovation in steel, machinery and art, man has always needed a tool with which to rend things; and whenever I encounter a new edge tool I head to the internet to discover whatever information is available.

This has often led me to Youtube reviews, including the numerous destruction testing videos posted by Joe X. His channel is only vaguely informative but his antics are so over the top that he literally bleeds for his audience. It’s only a matter of time before he seriously injures himself. Like many of you, I often find myself thinking ”You idiot that is not how you are supposed to use a knife.”

Which brings me to the subject of this thread. No matter how crazy Joe X might be, there is little or no discussion on how knives should actually be used. To be sure there are libraries packed with self defense, bushcraft and cooking techniques; but, only vague information regarding the knives themselves. The makers seem to produce knives in a variety of popular shapes with only the slightest thought on how that specific knife advantages the user. There is little or no indication of whether the product is fit for a specific purpose. We are each left to our own intuitive assumptions based on the general appearance of the thing.

This often leads to malfunctions and inefficiencies, such as using way too heavy a knife to clear too much of a trail or putting the wrong edge on a blade which was not designed to support it. A knife might excel at processing game and yet perform poorly in breaking down boxes. Clearly not all knives are adequate for a specific purpose or process, and blade geometry, weight, composition, balance, heat treatment, etc. helps to determined that suitability. There is likely a reason for the vast variety of edge tools and perhaps we should spend more time discussing how the specific tool should be used and less time worrying about whether it is made from the latest material or follows the current fad.

Makers should step back from making fighters or utility, tactical or traditional, knives in known patterns and instead approach the blackboard as a blank slate determined to come up with the best design for a specific use. Rather than going the usual Jack of all trades master of none approach they should focus on function. At least then we might be better justified in holding on to a collection of knives since each knife would in some way be optimized for a given task.

Lets discuss.

n2s
 
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A purpose, practiced.

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I firmly believe there is no design left to uncover. People just need to spend more time trying to figure out what they want out of an object from the mind boggling options available to them, and there certainly are guides and how-to's readily available in specific fields should they want to invest time researching it before practicing it.

Those who have purpose for the blade, with practiced use, combined with their own ergonomic desires and physical capability, will find their most applicable object and how to use it.

There are very specific knives for very specific tasks and most certainly practiced, proven ways to use them.

The production industry (meats, seafood, etc) is absolutely full of bladed products with very specific 'how to use it' practices that are so widely accepted as how to do things they are spread across continents and cultures as the same.

The culinary industry is similar.

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Your desires aren't others desires. A common flaw in our modern age is trying to apply ones own logic or desires to others actions.

Life is there to be lived, however you want to live it, so long as you do as little harm as possible to yourself, others and the environments you can impact (in my opinion). Regularly this means picking something you enjoy using, rather than the very best, practical option, because rarely are they linked to your primary income source in the modern age anyway so efficiency regularly takes the backseat for many people compared to joy (joy is the sole reason I go bush, shoot, hunt, etc, not income).

It is up to people to decide whether they want to refine what they do with products to the n'th degree.

I hope makers never stop making fighters, or utility, tactical or traditional knives. Options are priceless.

Justification is a personal problem.
 
A purpose, practiced.

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I firmly believe there is no design left to uncover. ...

I am not ready to accept that premise. The same thought may have occurred a hundred or a thousand years ago, yet we continue to see innovation. It only stops when someone sets off to make another bowie or a titanium folder instead of trying to produce the best tool.. Arguably, Demco's triad lock, the Spyderco hole, the titanium frame lock flipper, and modern automatics have come a long way during the last 30 years. Even those silly Rambo knives of the 1980s may be worthy of further development. Someone should be able to loose the silly saw back teeth, develop a practical blade shape and mount it on a contoured handle that is both sturdy and comfortable to use. With modern materials and technology are we really limited to using soldered pipe fitting for handles?

There is room for innovation everywhere, but we have to try in order to get there.

n2s
 
'A purpose, practiced.'

Mr. Mistake and Miss Humility were the best teachers I'd ever had. I try to apply as much critical thinking and problem solving to the fun I have learning about knives.

Have fun with what you are doing and try not to overthink the outcome. Practice as many purposes as possible.

Maybe do the one knife for a year challenge!
 
I am not ready to accept that premise. The same thought may have occurred a hundred or a thousand years ago, yet we continue to see innovation. It only stops when someone sets off to make another bowie or a titanium folder instead of trying to produce the best tool.. Arguably, Demco's triad lock, the Spyderco hole, the titanium frame lock flipper, and modern automatics have come a long way during the last 30 years. Even those silly Rambo knives of the 1980s may be worthy of further development. Someone should be able to loose the silly saw back teeth, develop a practical blade shape and mount it on a contoured handle that is both sturdy and comfortable to use. With modern materials and technology are we really limited to using soldered pipe fitting for handles?

There is room for innovation everywhere, but we have to try in order to get there.

n2sa l

A little confused, seems like you think there aren’t practical uses for so many current knives or that they’re not already designed for a practical use. Even a “rambo” knife has its own practical use. Tactical knives are designed for their purposed practical use.

Maybe the idea shoud be, here’s a knife I like a lot. Now let’s find out what it does best.
 
A little confused, seems like you think there aren’t practical uses for so many current knives or that they’re not already designed for a practical use. Even a “rambo” knife has its own practical use. Tactical knives are designed for their purposed practical use.

Maybe the idea shoud be, here’s a knife I like a lot. Now let’s find out what it does best.
Yes, something like that. I am saying that instead of saying to us here is my 5" utility in magical steel with a proprietary heat treat, the pitch should be this is the knife I designed to do X; and this is how I approach doing X.

n2s
 
In theory, I like the idea of having a single grail knife, but in reality I like specialized tools for a job for comfort, safety and convenience. Also, consumerism prohibits such idealism.

The best thing we can do with a knife is to keep it sharp and use it skillfully. Practice makes perfect.
 
Yes, something like that. I am saying that instead of saying to us here is my 5" utility in magical steel with a proprietary heat treat, the pitch should be this is the knife I designed to do X; and this is how I approach doing X.

n2s
I'm with T token blade above, when he says he believes there is no design left to uncover. You can only come up with so many variations on an effective shape designed for a specific purpose before it falls into another category, or ends up being called something else to suit marketing. Innovation is now seen in the materials being used.

Take the evolution (or lack thereof) of Japanese kitchen knives. They're all designed for a different purpose, but at some point, there was no need to improve on the tried-and-true patterns. Instead, focus shifted to the type of steel used, metallurgy and sharpening techniques, handle construction, and material selection.

Aesthetics, now that's a different story altogether. It holds a lot of influence in my decisions though.
 
We are each left to our own intuitive assumptions based on the general appearance of the thing.

I love to look at a knife shape and imagine how I would use that thing, and what it would be good at. An important part of the hobby for me.

It's more than intuition though, more than half comes from experience in the kitchen, and then there is house, yard and outdoors work, whittling, camping, etc.

I exclude a lot of patterns that way; for example, I have no daggers - I understand their different purposes, but they are just not practical for me - where would my thumb go ? Then again, I do have knives that are mostly useless, just because they are interesting. Which is fine, I have more knives than I can use in my lifetime anyways.
 
The makers seem to produce knives in a variety of popular shapes with only the slightest thought on how that specific knife advantages the user.

Good knife makers put a lot of thought into this.

I'd also say that a well-designed knife doesn't always have to have a specific application - it can do a lot of different things, and even do them well, if it's designed properly.
 
Yes, something like that. I am saying that instead of saying to us here is my 5" utility in magical steel with a proprietary heat treat, the pitch should be this is the knife I designed to do X; and this is how I approach doing X.

n2s
So it sounds like you'd like the manufacturers to market "purpose-built" knives or otherwise justify the inclusion of certain blades/tools through marketing and education, if I'm understanding you correctly. I like the idea!

Instead of building this year's Stockman and highlighting the new handle material, market the utility of the knife as a tool. Times have changed, perhaps the complement of blades needs to change. Maybe a poor example, but today everyone uses a knife to open packages/boxes - how about selecting the best blade to accomplish that and market it as such, maybe a sheepfoots (my favorite for the task). Perhaps blade #2 could be called the "backyard" blade, one designed more for outdoor tasks, whichever blade style that might be. Maybe blade three is one useful to pry open battery doors on modern electronic devices. Again, maybe not the best example on how to modernize a Stockman, but I agree there is room to innovate here.
 
So it sounds like you'd like the manufacturers to market "purpose-built" knives or otherwise justify the inclusion of certain blades/tools through marketing and education, if I'm understanding you correctly. I like the idea!

Instead of building this year's Stockman and highlighting the new handle material, market the utility of the knife as a tool. Times have changed, perhaps the complement of blades needs to change. Maybe a poor example, but today everyone uses a knife to open packages/boxes - how about selecting the best blade to accomplish that and market it as such, maybe a sheepfoots (my favorite for the task). Perhaps blade #2 could be called the "backyard" blade, one designed more for outdoor tasks, whichever blade style that might be. Maybe blade three is one useful to pry open battery doors on modern electronic devices. Again, maybe not the best example on how to modernize a Stockman, but I agree there is room to innovate here.
My issue has more to do with the marketing. We expend so much energy talking about over hardened premium steel and ignore a lousy blade profile. Obviously, steel counts but it would be refreshing to see someone ask the maker what they designed the knife to do.

...It's a bowie....So you designed it for self defense (or dueling)...Yes, but it can chop and baton wood.... So it is a slow, dull, and poorly balanced fighting knife...:rolleyes:

n2s
 
My issue has more to do with the marketing. We expend so much energy talking about over hardened premium steel and ignore a lousy blade profile. Obviously, steel counts but it would be refreshing to see someone ask the maker what they designed the knife to do.

...It's a bowie....So you designed it for self defense (or dueling)...Yes, but it can chop and baton wood.... So it is a slow, dull, and poorly balanced fighting knife...:rolleyes:

n2s
I get your point about all the super steels. When I first got into knives I was all about researching steels and wanting the best new steel.

Over time it just seemed to get a little ridiculous because every new steel was so great and the previous steel was suddenly not worthy. I started to think it was all a marketing ploy to get people to buy 15 para 2’s in every steel made.

Now, steel isn’t even a consideration when purchasing. Because no matter what it is, the knife will cut and there’s nothing in my price ranges that’s gonna have some terrible steel.

Maybe Emerson has it right, cpm 154 is all you really need. 😂
 
I think everything is covered:

Self defense or fighting:
Numerous tantos
Daggers
Karambits
Reverse S blades (Civilian, Black Talon)
Clip points
Bayonets

Bushcraft:
All these scandis
Leukus
Puukkos
Hundreds of variations of almost same thing

Kitchen:
Chef knife
Butcher knife
Cleaver
Paring knife
Filleting knife and many others...

Survival knives:
Large bowies
Pry bars with an edge
Pry bars with edge, sharp spine and bowdrill hole on handle
And so many knives

Utility knives:
Wharnies
Sheepsfoots
Drop points...

Hunting knives:
Pig stickers
Skinners and others...

EDC knives:
Folding or fixed, every shape, grind or thickness possible has been done so far.

Other stuff:
Kukris
Competition choppers
Machetes
Hori hori
Stuff that you can turn into a spear (Cold Steel Bushman knife).

So far every single thing has been done. And even Kris type blades exist for people who want that kind of thing.
 
I think everything is covered:

Self defense or fighting:
Numerous tantos
Daggers
Karambits
Reverse S blades (Civilian, Black Talon)
Clip points
Bayonets

Bushcraft:
All these scandis
Leukus
Puukkos
Hundreds of variations of almost same thing

Kitchen:
Chef knife
Butcher knife
Cleaver
Paring knife
Filleting knife and many others...

Survival knives:
Large bowies
Pry bars with an edge
Pry bars with edge, sharp spine and bowdrill hole on handle
And so many knives

Utility knives:
Wharnies
Sheepsfoots
Drop points...

Hunting knives:
Pig stickers
Skinners and others...

EDC knives:
Folding or fixed, every shape, grind or thickness possible has been done so far.

Other stuff:
Kukris
Competition choppers
Machetes
Hori hori
Stuff that you can turn into a spear (Cold Steel Bushman knife).

So far every single thing has been done. And even Kris type blades exist for people who want that kind of thing.
Uhh, can we get some instructions on all of those types of knives??
 
It shouldn’t be a surprise to any of you that I am fascinated by knives. The variety of these tools domestically, historically or culturally is endless. From shards of rock to latest innovation in steel, machinery and art, man has always needed a tool with which to rend things; and whenever I encounter a new edge tool I head to the internet to discover whatever information is available.

This has often led me to Youtube reviews, including the numerous destruction testing videos posted by Joe X. His channel is only vaguely informative but his antics are so over the top that he literally bleeds for his audience. It’s only a matter of time before he seriously injures himself. Like many of you, I often find myself thinking ”You idiot that is not how you are supposed to use a knife.”

Which brings me to the subject of this thread. No matter how crazy Joe X might be, there is little or no discussion on how knives should actually be used. To be sure there are libraries packed with self defense, bushcraft and cooking techniques; but, only vague information regarding the knives themselves. The makers seem to produce knives in a variety of popular shapes with only the slightest thought on how that specific knife advantages the user. There is little or no indication of whether the product is fit for a specific purpose. We are each left to our own intuitive assumptions based on the general appearance of the thing.

This often leads to malfunctions and inefficiencies, such as using way too heavy a knife to clear too much of a trail or putting the wrong edge on a blade which was not designed to support it. A knife might excel at processing game and yet perform poorly in breaking down boxes. Clearly not all knives are adequate for a specific purpose or process, and blade geometry, weight, composition, balance, heat treatment, etc. helps to determined that suitability. There is likely a reason for the vast variety of edge tools and perhaps we should spend more time discussing how the specific tool should be used and less time worrying about whether it is made from the latest material or follows the current fad.

Makers should step back from making fighters or utility, tactical or traditional, knives in known patterns and instead approach the blackboard as a blank slate determined to come up with the best design for a specific use. Rather than going the usual Jack of all trades master of none approach they should focus on function. At least then we might be better justified in holding on to a collection of knives since each knife would in some way be optimized for a given task.

Lets discuss.

n2s
If there is some special function / purpose design ,that you can't find available "off the shelf" to suit you , there are many custom makers right here on BF that will be happy to help you !

Heck ...in fact you have to be careful to not issue any very specific POU challenges or you might "inspire" a custom build inadvertently ! :p




 
If you were to make a specific knife for a specific use, purpose or chore, it would be like walking into a candy store and feeling both underwhelmed and overwhelmed. Makers make to sell, because they know some strawhat is gonna buy it, it's the same reason why the reate exo k exists, a horribly dangerous knife to operate yet people are buying it. As for the jack of all trades "master approach " makers Do pay attention to historical trends, it's why the fixed blade full tang drop point blade will always be there, it's the basic multi functional do-all decently well or well enough for the user, it's an ancient blade profile and lasted because it works and makes sense, you can hunt, fish, shelter build, craft, fight, garden, wittle, bushcraft, etc with a drop point. If you want a blade shape with a very narrow purpose check out kris blades, unless you're "living the life" you won't find a purpose for it, yet again, people still buy it
 
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