Nickel Boron coating on D2

[somebizarredude]

Just for the hell of it I am considering having a couple D2 blades plated in nickel Boron. Just for something different than DlC with similar benefits.

The initial process is done at 200°f and they offer an optional heat treat that would put the blade at 600°f for 5 hours.
I know D2 is tempered between 400 and 900 or so depending on desired RC.

My question is, how badly will this process potentially damage the already tempered blade, if at all?

Thanks.

 

[DeadboxHero]

That would temper it too soft IMHO, especially if its already tempered.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Have your blades industrial hard chromed. It's harder than any nickel plating.
Mahovsky's Metalife is the place to go.

 

[bikerector]

Sounds like something I discussed with a knife maker from some of my process engineering days. Made me wonder if it could be something like the hard edge, soft spine, differential heat treatment concept but also stainless and much harder (thought maybe it could be toned down a lot). We used this coating in some extrusion dies.

https://www.balesusa.com/coatings/nibore/

 

[somebizarredude]

That would temper it too soft IMHO, especially if its already tempered.

Thanks. I figured that 600° was a little bit high. But i really have no idea what these particular blades are even hardned to. It's Just a couple cheap green thorn folders I am experimenting with.

That would temper it too soft IMHO, especially if its already tempered.

Thanks, that was my concern.

 

[somebizarredude]

Have your blades industrial hard chromed. It's harder than any nickel plating.
Mahovsky's Metalife is the place to go.

I will look in to that. The knives are new so that might be a good option if peeling isn't a concern. 70rc makes a nice hard wrapper.

Have you had any direct experience with this on a blade? Does it flake at the edge while sharpening?

 

[Wowbagger]

Sounds like something I discussed with a knife maker from some of my process engineering days. Made me wonder if it could be something like the hard edge, soft spine, differential heat treatment concept but also stainless and much harder (thought maybe it could be toned down a lot). We used this coating in some extrusion dies.

https://www.balesusa.com/coatings/nibore/

NIBORE™ is an electroless nickel boron nitride coating that offers a superior level of lubricity and release and an excellent level of abrasion and wear resistance, plus has an extremely low coefficient of friction — making it ideal for high abrasion and wear applications.

Sounds Ideal !
Of course I had high hopes for DLC and found it to actually cause the blade to have MORE stiction in the cut. One can test this with a thumb nail on the side of an uncoated fairly polished blade and then on a DLC. Blade. (hahaha the very last locking folder I just bought has DLC (((I liked the look))) . . . I'm just saying).

 

[bikerector]

NIBORE™ is an electroless nickel boron nitride coating that offers a superior level of lubricity and release and an excellent level of abrasion and wear resistance, plus has an extremely low coefficient of friction — making it ideal for high abrasion and wear applications.

Sounds Ideal !
Of course I had high hopes for DLC and found it to actually cause the blade to have MORE stiction in the cut. One can test this with a thumb nail on the side of an uncoated fairly polished blade and then on a DLC. Blade. (hahaha the very last locking folder I just bought has DLC (((I liked the look))) . . . I'm just saying).

The catch with NIBORE is that it still has a heat process of 550 degrees F which could be enough to affect the HT. I would think you could find a steel less affected by it, maybe a high temp tool steel like M4. I never looked into it too much. It would seem that event the low temp electrolysis step would be a nice option for stain resistant finish and at an RC 54 it's still as hard as the steel on many of the chopper types of knives, that is to say that it shouldn't just rub off. I think we paid $50 for 3 2-3" diameter extrusion dies to be coated as that was their minimum price and treating just one didn't make sense. I don't know that we ever wore the coating off. The lubricity was better than the stainless steel the fabricators milled out and polished for us, which I want to was 430 stainless (food grade SS).

 

[Natlek]

I will look in to that. The knives are new so that might be a good option if peeling isn't a concern. 70rc makes a nice hard wrapper.

Have you had any direct experience with this on a blade? Does it flake at the edge while sharpening?

No and no It is very durable , hard to scratch ..............don t mix hard chrome with PLATED nickel which can flake and peel .

 

[Wowbagger]

The lubricity was better than the stainless steel the fabricators milled out and polished for us, which I want to was 430 stainless (food grade SS).

That was probably a good thing to do. I find stainless can gall more readily than plain carbon steel parts.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Puma hard chromed their hunting knife blades for years. It holds up well.

 

[bikerector]

That was probably a good thing to do. I find stainless can gall more readily than plain carbon steel parts.

True. Our challenge is that I was in animal/pet nutraceuticals (didn't know it was a thing until that job) at the time so sanitary design was a factor and rust is hard to clean. Plus, the sanitation and cleaning chemicals can tear up carbon parts pretty quick if we need to use acid based cleaners to dissolve the soils. Often times, you can get away with running near boiling water which cleans and sanitizes all in one step and actually does a nice job dissolving most proteins.

Our extruder screws were hardened tool steel of some kind and they did quite well with cleaners but we had to rinse them and coat in veggie oil pretty quickly after cleaning or they would rust up pretty fast. Also expensive when someone dropped them as they cracked pretty easily on the concrete... wasn't good for the floors either.

 

[TILLER]

I’m no expert but I have been working on black nickel plating D2. I bought the black nickel kit from Caswell.

After buying it and getting a burnt look instead of a plate I did more reading.

With d2 it seems there are two issues. One is stainless steel is resistant to plating. The other is hydrogen embrittlement.

Stainless steel forms an oxide layer. This prevents platining. From what I’ve read an acid can remove that layer but it returns quickly. A woods nickel strike appears to be an acidic plating solution that removes the oxide layer and plates a thin layer of nickel. After that you can plate over it. One study I read showed this as the woods strike was the best bond, followed by other treatments.

Sounds fine except it brings up the other problem of hydrogen embrittlement. From what I’ve read this is more of a problem with high strength hardened steels. The acid pre treatment and from the plating process produces hydrogen. The hydrogen penetrates the steel, leading to cracking. It is delt with by baking the steel after plating. It apparently is a time and temperature dependent. On the order of 375-450 range for anywhere from a few hours to 22 hours from what I’ve found. Higher temps being shorter. I couldn’t find any hard information, it appears to depend on the specific treatments and the strength of the steel. I’d wager that the 600 degree process they describe is to deal with this.

Anyway, that is from an initial plating failure after a few tries and then a lot of reading. Caswell suggested a muriatic acid treatment prior to plating. I haven’t tried that yet.

I’m sure there are people on here with much more experience and knowledge on the subject. This was probably a real long post to just say that it’s not as straightforward as it seemed.

 

[somebizarredude]

That would temper it too soft IMHO, especially if its already tempered.

After talking to them about available temperatures of the post coating bake. They say its possible to harden the NIB coating to the desired 74 Rc by baking it at 425° for 36hrs. It seems like a long time, but at a temperature that should have the blade between 60-59Rc which is what was advertised for the blade anyways. That
should be fine in my mind.

They also state that that the lengthened bake period improves adhesion a great deal.
Would being baked for that length of time have other negative effects on the Blade aside from changes in Rc? My knowledge of heat treatment is limited, so I appreciate your advice.

Thanks,

 

[DeadboxHero]

After talking to them about available temperatures of the post coating bake. They say its possible to harden the NIB coating to the desired 74 Rc by baking it at 425° for 36hrs. It seems like a long time, but at a temperature that should have the blade between 60-59Rc which is what was advertised for the blade anyways. That
should be fine in my mind.

They also state that that the lengthened bake period improves adhesion a great deal.
Would being baked for that length of time have other negative effects on the Blade aside from changes in Rc? My knowledge of heat treatment is limited, so I appreciate your advice.

Thanks,

Test the edges between the coated one and a none coated to see for yourself.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

The substrate in any nickel-based plating is still nickel. While nickel can be hard, these platers are relying on the addition of boron or other materials suspended in the plating for extreme hardness-much like a diamond file.
Industrial hard chrome relies on the hardness of the chromium itself-which is usually about 72RC.

 

[somebizarredude]

The substrate in any nickel-based plating is still nickel. While nickel can be hard, these platers are relying on the addition of boron or other materials suspended in the plating for extreme hardness-much like a diamond file.
Industrial hard chrome relies on the hardness of the chromium itself-which is usually about 72RC.

I am really considering the hard chrome since lubricity isn't a real priority with a bearing pivot.
But I haven't heard back from Mahovsky's Metalife on pricing for such a small batch of parts, I didn't see it in the price page.