Nickle Silver Sheath

[Mark Behnke]

This one I just finished, I did a copper one before for practice.
Still a lot to learn making these.
Thanks for looking.
Mark

 

[popedandy]

Superbly done.

 

[Ramm9]

That is one nice looking sheath? Are you going to build a leather over sheath for it? If you get the chance tell us something about how you made it.

 

[Mark Behnke]

Thank you for you kind comments.
I 'm not aware of how an over sheath would be applied , if you could explain or show pics, I will consider it.I haven't done any leather work, but I'm going to start a simple stitched one for that knife.

Here's a link the tutorial I followed,but I made a little different form to follow the blade geometry, see pics http://beknivessite2.homestead.com/nssheath.html

 

[Dusty One]

Very nice looking work............

 

[Ramm9]

I 'm not aware of how an over sheath would be applied , if you could explain or show pics, I will consider it.[/url]

Thanks for the tutorial!

Your sheath reminded me of the Will & Finck and Michael Price San Francisco bowie style. Both of those makers used an attachment for hanging the sheath directly on a belt rather than a frog button. The over sheath was simply two pieces of leather stitched together with belt loop slots on the back piece. You can see photo's on pages 102 and 103 in Levine's "Knifemakers of Old San Francisco".

As I understand it tanned leather in the early to mid 1800's didn't hold up very well. I'm guessing a bit here but using a metal sheath (often silver) that could be slid into an easily replaced leather pouch made the knife more secure in the field and protected the fancy "in town" scabbard. If you posted in Bernard Levine's forum you will get a more factual background and possibly some pictures.

 

[Diomedes Industries]

That is ludicrous!

TF

 

[Mark Behnke]

Dusty One, popedandy thanks
Talfuchre, "That is ludicrous!" ?
Ramm9,
I pulled out my copy of Levines book, and never noticed that was an over scabbard. Thanks for the heads up. The S.F. style knives are one of my favorites and I plan to do work in several of the makers style.

I plan to do the attachment style as seen on page 15 next time.

Thanks everyone for your interest and comments,very encouraging.
Mark

 

[Ramm9]

I pulled out my copy of Levines book, and never noticed that was an over scabbard. Thanks for the heads up. The S.F. style knives are one of my favorites and I plan to do work in several of the makers style.

I plan to do the attachment style as seen on page 15 next time.

That's the patented Will & Finck clip on page 15, there's a write up of the patent on page 69 and a side view showing a spring on page 70. Pretty innovative.

Thinking back maybe only the Will & Finck scabbards could be hooked on a belt and the Michael Price knives needed an over sheath.

Here's a couple of close up shots...

 

[Mark Behnke]

Thanks for pointing out the spring clip, I had missed that also. Time to reread the book.

Great pictures, I think I may have seen the push dagger on Bernards site?
The pics of the small bowie I have never seen, great details.

I'm wondering how the original knives were held in the sheath, in the Bruce Bump tutorial he uses felt as a liner.Without anything the blade rattles, and is as loose as can be. I like the pin on the push dagger sheath.

With the copper sheath I made, where the blade contacted the sheath a fairly deep spot of corrosion occurred. I noticed the same sort of spot in a picture of an original SF knife.

 

[Ramm9]

Here is the patent drawing from one of Bernard's posts. The pin is a screw that can be tightened locking the clip from opening.

No idea how the blades were held, I would have thought the interior of the scabbard would be slotted for the blade to ride in. BRL will be able to tell you.

 

[Mark Behnke]

Thanks, you've been a great help.

 

[Wild Rose]

First off Mark you did an excellent job based on the pics. I've never made a full metal sheath but have done enough tips and throats for leather sheaths, the process is one of the more difficult ones - in fact I'm doing a large Bowie sheath with German Silver thraot and tip right now and it's got me pulling my hair out - if you ever want some work sent your way for such fittings let me know!

re: Over sheath
The correct/common period terminology for such a leather belt hanger is frog - never heard the term "over sheath" before and I've been studying the subject in depth for almost 50 years - of course I haven't heard everything, but have yet to see that term in any period resources. Using a frog is in fact what the stud is for on the front of so many period sheaths of all types - while there are a few period references to using the stud alone, most sheaths with such a stud also incorporated a frog, which makes carrying the knife and sheath much more practical and stable.

As for leather not holding up from the mid-18th Century - not sure who the info comes from, but it's a bit over blown if applied to all leather goods of the period. FWIW - I've period examined 1,000's of pieces of period leather, much of it from the pre-1870 period, have owned several pieces, and am continuously examining more all the time - it's not only my life's work but my life's passion.
Am I an "expert"? Well that's up to other folks to decide, I don't much care for such titles especially if/when self applied - I just consider myself another student, albeit a serious and very well read one
One resource alone for many surviving leather sheaths - Norm Flayderman's book, The Bowie Knife - chock full of mid-19th Century pieces and that's just the tip of the ice berg so to speak. As well a plethora of period gun leather and saddlery can still be found, many still in usable condition - see Packing Iron for a start .
Of course like all leather goods made, if it's not cared for properly than it will be toast - cared for properly it works and stays just fine, although like most things time will eventually take it's toll, especially when not cared for properly (also the sulphur in smog is a major problem).
On the other hand leather isn't the best material to use in a 'wet' environment and since the Bay area is a wet one.... or it just may be that the makers there wanted something different and special for those with pockets full of gold.
For those interested in old leather and how to take care of it Jarnagin's has a page with a good amount of info linked to it:
http://www.jarnaginco.com/leather definitions index.htm

and this link from that site does have info regarding Military leather damage in particular, from that period due to processing "cheats":
http://www.jarnaginco.com/cmharticle.pdf

 

[Ramm9]

re: Over sheath
The correct/common period terminology for such a leather belt hanger is frog - never heard the term "over sheath" before and I've been studying the subject in depth for almost 50 years - .............

As for leather not holding up from the mid-18th Century - not sure who the info comes from, but it's a bit over blown if applied to all leather goods of the period. FWIW - I've period examined 1,000's of pieces of period leather, much of it from the pre-1870 period,

I think of a leather belt holder as a "frog" also, a loop to insert the sheath into and held in place by a button. The "over sheath" described is a full leather sheath with the metal scabbard inserted. Here are scans from Bernard's "Knifemakers of Old San Francisco".

There must be enough "old leather" around in saddles and such that not all of it went bad so why some of it did not hold up I can only guess, we'll have to ask Bernard.

That was indeed the saddlemaker's job.

I've seen no evidence that Will & Finck (or M. Price) had leather shops.
And old leather was generally short lived. When used out in the field, it would only last a few weeks or months.

Both styles of hunting knife (with and without guard) are shown in the only surviving W&F mail order catalog, 1896.
Both were made in step sizes.
None was offered with a sheath of any type.
The bowies and push daggers DID come with sheaths - typical W&F metal sheaths with their patent clip.
Metal sheaths seem often to have been worn inside expendable leather over-sheaths
-- M Price metal sheaths with steel spring clips could ONLY be worn that way
-- much the way sword scabbards (and English bowie scabbards) with frog studs were worn buttoned into expendable leather frogs that hung on the belt.
I have seen quite a few English bowie scabbards with leather over-scabbards, and probably quite a few more over-scabbards were discarded by iggerant collectors and the dealers who cater to them.

*

As to the STYLE of sheath, ignore the incised decoration, and look at the construction of the sheath itself.
It is just two pieces of leather, sewn together, with belt loops cut in the back -- a relatively modern style.
Now look at the Todt sheaths shown in my books.
The back is leather LINED with leather (in a contrasting color such as red, which does not show in B&W), so there is NO rough back showing in the finished sheath.
The belt loops are cut into the lining leather, do not come through the back.

Beware of authors and ebay sellers who date everything a generation (or two, or three) earlier than it really is.

BRL...

It still makes some sense to me that if my standard sidearm knife had an engraved silver scabbard with maybe some gold inlay I would be inclined to stick it in a leather sheath for a day or two ride to Sacramento or San Jose.

 

[Wild Rose]

Now that makes sense and I admit I've never seen one, but then I'm not real "up" on the Bay area makers and have never seen on on the English knives (which of course doesn't mean anything in particular) since my main interests lie elsewhere/when.

It is just two pieces of leather, sewn together, with belt loops cut in the back -- a relatively modern style.

I will disagree with that statement though it would depend on what he means by "modern" since such simple belt loops can be dated back to much earlier and show up fairly frequently in the 1870-1880's.

And old leather was generally short lived. When used out in the field, it would only last a few weeks or months.

Based on that statement I'd agree up to a point - that being lack of proper care, but then again even modern leather will last only a short period dependent on care and where it's used - FWIW that's not just theory but based on personal experience and testing of my leather by many others in several types of environments. For instance as I noted leather when kept constantly wet and un or under cared for gets worn out fast. Jungle use is another place that leather unless virtually made into plastic via various methods doesn't last long - kydex and other synthetics definitely have their place in such difficult environments.

 

[Ramm9]

I will disagree with that statement though it would depend on what he means by "modern" since such simple belt loops can be dated back to much earlier and show up fairly frequently in the 1870-1880's.

I think the context was that a knife and sheath were being presented as authentic and Bernard was pointing out that the SF maker actually provided sheaths that were three pieces.

Based on that statement I'd agree up to a point - that being lack of proper care, but then again even modern leather will last only a short period dependent on care and where it's used

How was the leather prepared/tanned that was used by saddle makers, especially in the west in the 1830-1860 time period? I understand brain tanning and that smoking the leather allowed it to hold up to rain but did they simply do that or use other methods.

 

[Mark Behnke]

Chuck
Thank you for explaining the frog and button arrangement, I haven't seen one (frog) so have been left to my imagination. I'll be getting a copy of Norm Fladermans book as my deepest interest is in older works. I do have a copy of Robert Berryman& Chas. SchreinerIII March 1992 Auction catalog which is my best reference to 19th century works.
After 50yrs. of following your passion there's no doubt about your status as what I would call "Master" of your trade.

Having just retired after 30+ years as an electrician and starting a new apprenticeship in the ABS I'll be spending all available time in the shop.I'm kind of floored that you would consider me to do the metal work , but yes I'd love to give it a shot.
Thanks Mark Behnke

 

[Wild Rose]

Most leather was bark tanned, especially that used for saddlery, gun leather. etc., just like it was in the east and Europe - see the Jarnagin link I posted earlier fro more info...............rawhide was also used in part for making trees and some other items.

One of the biggest "industries" in California of the time was hides and tallow for tanneries and all of the Missions did their own tanning. Brain tan was almost exclusively an Indian made & used item, except for clothing which was sold/traded to others. Most "white" settlements (including Spanish) of any size had their own bark tanning facilites early on and like many other things finished leathers were also imported from the east or from over seas. Main and Winchester of San Franciso were a major maker/supplier of all types of leather goods during and after the Gold Rush: harness, saddlery, gun leather (if not the originator they were at least a major influence on the California or Slim Jim style holster), and much more. I'd be willing to bet the M & W may very well have been makers of sheaths for the Bay Area knife makers. On the other hand they were just one of many leather crafters, in teh are especially during the Gold Rush.
In the interior west ( i.e. Rockies, Plains, etc.) most leather goods such as saddles, were purchased in St. Louis and other mid-west suppliers, in Santa Fe or places in Texas, came from California, or were made/sold at many of the various trading posts/forts such as Bent's, Laramie, etc. Towards the end of that period larger towns/cities such as Denver and Salt Lake became trade centers for most anything you wished.

I think the context was that a knife and sheath were being presented as authentic and Bernard was pointing out that the SF maker actually provided sheaths that were three pieces.

I can see that now, but when reading his reply to me the implication by Mr. Levine is since that it is a slotted loop sheath it is a "modern" innovation and I'd have to respectfully disagree on that point alone, again dependent on his definition of modern. The SF makers may have supplied only the 3 piece type, but that doesn't mean that a sheath wasn't made as a replacement by another maker of the same or even of a some what later "period", making it not necessarily modern - which for me is post 1900, but may be for him say 1880, again based on his comment about a generation or two or three. Not really an argument just I don't know what he means by modern.........

 

[Ramm9]

Thanks, I was just reading the links about bark and the hemlock shortcuts.

 

[Wild Rose]

Chuck
Thank you for explaining the frog and button arrangement, I haven't seen one (frog) so have been left to my imagination. I'll be getting a copy of Norm Fladermans book as my deepest interest is in older works. I do have a copy of Robert Berryman& Chas. SchreinerIII March 1992 Auction catalog which is my best reference to 19th century works.
After 50yrs. of following your passion there's no doubt about your status as what I would call "Master" of your trade.

Having just retired after 30+ years as an electrician and starting a new apprenticeship in the ABS I'll be spending all available time in the shop.I'm kind of floored that you would consider me to do the metal work , but yes I'd love to give it a shot.
Thanks Mark Behnke

I've got one you might be interested in - brass throat (no button stud), and tip on a leather sheath (which I will do) - customer told me after the fact he wants it to look new and I don't do new LOL.

If interested send me an email to - and you will no only get paid for what you do, bu I always credit other folks work as well....
chuck @ wrtcleather.com (remove the spaces) or give me a call at 970-259-8396. I live in Colorado on Mtn Time - later afternoon is best since I tend to work into the wee hours......if you call and get the machine leave a message.

Here's a basic frog and sheath, just one of many styles..

The thong with button slide is a keeper strap for the knife and has nothing to with the frog.

and here are some other resources for "old" stuff:
Here are some places to start researching the actual knives and sheaths of the American West pre-1899.

- "Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook" - has scale drawings of a variety of knives well dated from the 1500's to the late 1800's – a real cheap source

- “American Knives, The First History And Collector's Guide"
Harold L. Peterson

- "The Knife In Homespun America And Related Items"
Grant, Madison

- "American Primitive Knives 1770-1870"
Minnis, Gordon

- “The Bowie Knife Book”
Norm Flayderman

- “Bowie Knives and Bayonets of the Ben Palmer Collection”
Ben Palmer

- “Bowie Knives”
Robert Abels

- “Early Knives & Beaded Sheaths of the American Frontier”
John Baldwin

- “Peacemakers”
R. L. Wilson

- “The Skinning Knife”
M. H. Cole


These are just a start and some may be out of print so use your local Interlibrary Loan to obtain them: there are many other books on the general time period/subject one chooses (i.e. Rev War, Mtn Man, Civil War) as well with several or maybe just one or two knives included, magazine articles, auction catalogs and websites (e.g. Cowans, Apache Junction, Butterfields, Greg Martin, etc.), museum catalogs and websites (e.g. BBHC.org, Splendid Heritage, Autry Nat’l Center, etc.) all have good examples of actual period knives & sheaths and IMO are worth the time spent searching.

Some recommendations and thoughts on building period knives:
I’m a firm believer that when making a period repro to use the materials and methods used in the past as much as possible when possible (on the other hand I have NOTHING against using some power machines because while our tools of today are different, power tools of various types similar to those used today were used).

1) Blade steels: based on a couple of dozen metallurgical tests done on period common type blades, such as trade and butcher lnives, I've read over the years as well as steel making info from the "day", the most common steel used is most closely imitated today with one of the 1065-1070-1075-1080 simple hi-carbon steel series. The blades generally tended to be thinner than today (1/8-3/32" at the hit - Bowies at times going thicker) and were mostly through hardened not zone hardened and generally softer than is the norm today. Tested blades went Rockwell C from the mid to upper-40's (most of them) to the mid-50's. I prefer a bit harder dependent on the usage to around 56-58 RC, but it all depends on the customers requirements.