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"no duty to retreat"
- Thread starter Rich G
- Start date
Rich, I can't speak as to Florida law but I can as to the duty to retreat in general.
Where it exists, the duty to retreat is the duty to get away from the attack if at all posssible, no matter the provocation or who started it, if you can safely do so. And there's the key.
The duty to retreat does not mean you must turn and run if you have bad legs and it would put you in a worse tactical situation. The duty to retreat is not the duty to be incredibly stupid.
Some states have this duty for all attacks. Some have it for only attacks with deadly force. Some have none at all - Kentucky, for example. In most jurisdictions you have no duty to retreat from your own home, period.
However, practically speaking, judges, prosecutors, police, and jurors will question your motives in choosing not to retreat when you had an opportunity. You are not society's designated avenger. Simply because you do not have a duty to retreat does not mean that the powers-that-be will conclude that you have acted reasonably in self-defense; it's merely one of a number of factors: an important one, to be sure.
student
Where it exists, the duty to retreat is the duty to get away from the attack if at all posssible, no matter the provocation or who started it, if you can safely do so. And there's the key.
The duty to retreat does not mean you must turn and run if you have bad legs and it would put you in a worse tactical situation. The duty to retreat is not the duty to be incredibly stupid.
Some states have this duty for all attacks. Some have it for only attacks with deadly force. Some have none at all - Kentucky, for example. In most jurisdictions you have no duty to retreat from your own home, period.
However, practically speaking, judges, prosecutors, police, and jurors will question your motives in choosing not to retreat when you had an opportunity. You are not society's designated avenger. Simply because you do not have a duty to retreat does not mean that the powers-that-be will conclude that you have acted reasonably in self-defense; it's merely one of a number of factors: an important one, to be sure.
student
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
Student just gave you a great overview of what it is.
I might add, that to my knowledge and understanding, in the State of Massachussetts, there is a "duty to retreat" in your own home.
That might be the only State that has this idiotic notion. Let us hope so anyway.
In my Posts, you will see my dance on the fringe at times regarding the law. None of that is to be construed as supporting or promoting the act of murder. I don't believe in murder, however, if you ask me if killing is OK, inevitably I would have to say that is situational. Murder bad, sometimes killing is a necessity. "Stopping" someone, contrary to all the rhetoric, often means killing them. Politically correct I am not.
I think, personally, there should be absolutely no duty to retreat as it allows slick individuals to legally, "Monday Morning Quarterback" you in a Court of Law. Not that they cannot do that anyway, but let's take some of that power away. No duty to retreat on the street and certainly not in your home.
I might add, that to my knowledge and understanding, in the State of Massachussetts, there is a "duty to retreat" in your own home.
That might be the only State that has this idiotic notion. Let us hope so anyway.
In my Posts, you will see my dance on the fringe at times regarding the law. None of that is to be construed as supporting or promoting the act of murder. I don't believe in murder, however, if you ask me if killing is OK, inevitably I would have to say that is situational. Murder bad, sometimes killing is a necessity. "Stopping" someone, contrary to all the rhetoric, often means killing them. Politically correct I am not.
I think, personally, there should be absolutely no duty to retreat as it allows slick individuals to legally, "Monday Morning Quarterback" you in a Court of Law. Not that they cannot do that anyway, but let's take some of that power away. No duty to retreat on the street and certainly not in your home.
However you feel about it, everyone is well advised to find out what the reality is in your jurisdictions and the places you're likely to visit.
If you don't like the state of the law, that's what ballots, contributions, petitions, etc. are for. But ignorance of the law is not an asset.
student
If you don't like the state of the law, that's what ballots, contributions, petitions, etc. are for. But ignorance of the law is not an asset.
student
Connecticut is a retreat at all costs even in your own home state as well..and we're talking OLD 13 colony places where they bled & died to be free...to be unrestrained by stupid laws...
Yes..idiocy at its best...unfortunately its part of the lay of the land....
I wish Don was making the laws!!!!
Yes..idiocy at its best...unfortunately its part of the lay of the land....
I wish Don was making the laws!!!!
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
Bram, Student, Rich...
I wish I were making the laws as well. At least they would be consistent and fair.
I could never live in a State like that. If the drum of gun control continues to beat, I will be found in the last State to pass such madness. Maryland is bad enough.
And a lot of "liberal" people wonder why gun owners and freedom lovers flock to places like Wyoming, Montana and Idaho...and I shake my head and wonder why they wonder.
I wish I were making the laws as well. At least they would be consistent and fair.
I could never live in a State like that. If the drum of gun control continues to beat, I will be found in the last State to pass such madness. Maryland is bad enough.
And a lot of "liberal" people wonder why gun owners and freedom lovers flock to places like Wyoming, Montana and Idaho...and I shake my head and wonder why they wonder.
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2000
- Messages
- 129
I live in Massachusetts. According to the lawyer I talked with a few months back, the state indeed used to have a duty to retreat even from ones own home. Fortunately, the law was changed a handful of years ago, removing the duty to retreat from ones home. I believe that one has a duty to retreat everywhere else, though.
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He who attacks must vanquish. He who defends need only survive.
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He who attacks must vanquish. He who defends need only survive.
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 8,917
Well, it is certainly good to hear that Mass. has dropped that oppressive policy/law.
As for English Common Law, many States such as Florida have adopted what is called, The Castle Doctrine, I do not know if that is "officially" what it is referred to or not, but it merely states, "A Man's (or Woman's) Home is their Castle..." Very simple and effective.
I don't care what someone is doing in your home, I don't care if it is night or day, I don't care if they have a weapon visible or not. You should be able to neutralize them on the spot for you never know what they have in their pocket or under wraps, you never know who is behind them or possibly behind you (that you missed) while you are dealing with the one in front.
Life is not a game, and there are a lot of high-thinking people that would disagree with me, call me bloodthirsty or murderous. It is simply not true. It is called survival. If someone brings you violence, they have brought it to you. Even on the street.
Does that mean you kill anyone that is in your way? Hell no, but it means you do not bargain, guess or play parlor games.
Out of pure practicality, you should not involve yourself in stupid squabbles engage road ragers or be involved in that yourself. You should try to de-escalate if there is time, and time is a precious commodity in this game. You should try to get the hell out of the situation if at all possible without resorting to violence. Because even if you succeed in putting the person down, even if you do not get dragged through Court, Civil or Criminal, that person still has friends, associates and family, and through Court Documents, the will know where you live.
Which brings us full circle again as to why it is sometimes best to walk away if you live in a major city. Your attacker(s) will be able to get a lot of information on you.
There are no easy answers.
As for English Common Law, many States such as Florida have adopted what is called, The Castle Doctrine, I do not know if that is "officially" what it is referred to or not, but it merely states, "A Man's (or Woman's) Home is their Castle..." Very simple and effective.
I don't care what someone is doing in your home, I don't care if it is night or day, I don't care if they have a weapon visible or not. You should be able to neutralize them on the spot for you never know what they have in their pocket or under wraps, you never know who is behind them or possibly behind you (that you missed) while you are dealing with the one in front.
Life is not a game, and there are a lot of high-thinking people that would disagree with me, call me bloodthirsty or murderous. It is simply not true. It is called survival. If someone brings you violence, they have brought it to you. Even on the street.
Does that mean you kill anyone that is in your way? Hell no, but it means you do not bargain, guess or play parlor games.
Out of pure practicality, you should not involve yourself in stupid squabbles engage road ragers or be involved in that yourself. You should try to de-escalate if there is time, and time is a precious commodity in this game. You should try to get the hell out of the situation if at all possible without resorting to violence. Because even if you succeed in putting the person down, even if you do not get dragged through Court, Civil or Criminal, that person still has friends, associates and family, and through Court Documents, the will know where you live.
Which brings us full circle again as to why it is sometimes best to walk away if you live in a major city. Your attacker(s) will be able to get a lot of information on you.
There are no easy answers.
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
- Joined
- Oct 9, 1998
- Messages
- 75,513
My understanding is that other governments that like Massachusetts have tried to abolish the right to defend your home have had the same experience in trying to get juries to go along with that idea....
Of course you don't have an obligation to retreat if you can't, for whatever reason.
I wish there were half as much talk about ethics as about law on the forums. IMHO there are many situations in which retreat is ethically appropriate. If a loudmouth drunk hassles me in a bar am I going to insist on my right to stay there and drink in peace if I have to beat him senseless??? Hell no -- if the bartender doesn't throw him out PDQ I'm leaving (and I'll never come back). If it's on the street instead of in a bar it's still not my job to deal with him if I can avoid it -- that's what we pay the police for. My only obligation IMHO is to call the police -- let them bust him for drunk-and-disorderly and let them be the ones to get vomited on, not me -- I don't get paid for that. I support my local police every time they ask for higher wages -- I think that's enough without doing their job for them too.
Even if they come onto my property I'll call the police rather than deal with them myself -- as long as they don't come in the house after me. One cold winter night four drunks got into the cellar of my apartment building trying to get warm and the damn fools built a fire of some old newspapers they found there ... with no ventilation ... woke me up yelling at each other as they put out the fire ... I put on a bathrobe and slippers and went down there with a 2D Maglite in one hand and my other hand in the pocket of my robe and when they saw me through the smoke they left -- and I made no attempt to stop them. Why should I? I made sure the fire was out and I went back upstairs and called the cops and they picked them up in less than ten minutes.
I suppose a lot depends on your local law enforcement situation. If I hadn't known the cops would catch them and the court would deal with them I might have done differently.
Earlier tonight I wrote a post in Bram's forum about using martial skills for the benefit of all sentient beings ... you might want to compare the two posts; here's a link to that thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum35/HTML/000556.html
I don't think the two posts are contradictory but some might.... I see it as my duty to act when the police can't, usually because they aren't there at the crucial moment. I don't see it as my duty to do the police department's work for them when they can do it better. It's not just that I don't want to get vomited on ... a lot of times a perp can learn more from spending some time in jail than from getting beat up....
-Cougar :{)
Of course you don't have an obligation to retreat if you can't, for whatever reason.
I wish there were half as much talk about ethics as about law on the forums. IMHO there are many situations in which retreat is ethically appropriate. If a loudmouth drunk hassles me in a bar am I going to insist on my right to stay there and drink in peace if I have to beat him senseless??? Hell no -- if the bartender doesn't throw him out PDQ I'm leaving (and I'll never come back). If it's on the street instead of in a bar it's still not my job to deal with him if I can avoid it -- that's what we pay the police for. My only obligation IMHO is to call the police -- let them bust him for drunk-and-disorderly and let them be the ones to get vomited on, not me -- I don't get paid for that. I support my local police every time they ask for higher wages -- I think that's enough without doing their job for them too.
Even if they come onto my property I'll call the police rather than deal with them myself -- as long as they don't come in the house after me. One cold winter night four drunks got into the cellar of my apartment building trying to get warm and the damn fools built a fire of some old newspapers they found there ... with no ventilation ... woke me up yelling at each other as they put out the fire ... I put on a bathrobe and slippers and went down there with a 2D Maglite in one hand and my other hand in the pocket of my robe and when they saw me through the smoke they left -- and I made no attempt to stop them. Why should I? I made sure the fire was out and I went back upstairs and called the cops and they picked them up in less than ten minutes.
I suppose a lot depends on your local law enforcement situation. If I hadn't known the cops would catch them and the court would deal with them I might have done differently.
Earlier tonight I wrote a post in Bram's forum about using martial skills for the benefit of all sentient beings ... you might want to compare the two posts; here's a link to that thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum35/HTML/000556.html
I don't think the two posts are contradictory but some might.... I see it as my duty to act when the police can't, usually because they aren't there at the crucial moment. I don't see it as my duty to do the police department's work for them when they can do it better. It's not just that I don't want to get vomited on ... a lot of times a perp can learn more from spending some time in jail than from getting beat up....
-Cougar :{)