No MAD DOG Handle failures?

M

Mike Turber

Joined
Oct 2, 1998
Messages
5,461
I know this is getting old but the facts are still coming to me and I have an obligation to report them. I apologize to all of the members for all of this BS but I will still continue to report the facts as I get them.

It has been claimed that Mad Dog knows of no handle failures EVER occuring in one of his knives.

Again only the facts..

The following articles are from Fighting Knives Magazine.

5,6,7 & 8 are up now. I will upload the others in a few but the links are there for them now.
www.bladeforums.com/images/page-1.jpg www.bladeforums.com/images/page-2.jpg www.bladeforums.com/images/page-3.jpg www.bladeforums.com/images/page-4.jpg www.bladeforums.com/images/page-5.jpg www.bladeforums.com/images/page-6.jpg www.bladeforums.com/images/page-7.jpg www.bladeforums.com/images/page-8.jpg

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!


[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 07 November 1999).]
 
The following was posted by Spencer Stewart on the KFC MD forum.

Regarding the issue of should the defective knife be replaced or not to the
owner...First, those who are complaining about Mad Dog not speaking for
himself and others are speaking for him should heed their own advice.
I would like to see the owner to speak for him/herself rather than let
all these other folks speak for the owner. Second, it seems like the owner
was not interested in using the knife or placing trust in the knife,
he/she simply wanted to know what it looked like inside. I suspect the
owner would likewise destroy the genuine replacement as well. Thirdly, it
just sounds like to me a person wants a Mad Dog knife for free.
Click to expand...

Your three points.

1) Maybe he will. I can not speak directly for him.
2) Specualtion on your part.
3) Funny the owner has already stated he could care less if he gets a new knife but he would like a replacement, since Mrs. Mad Dog offered one.

Just the facts.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!


[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 07 November 1999).]
 
The first four pages have now been uploaded.

This article was written in 1994 I believe....

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Yes this article was written in 1994. Remember that MD had written articles for the mag such as a study on handle material in which G11 came out on top and etc. I doubt if they were personally biased against him. Also what about the commercial knives I wonder if this knife could have been one of them and not completely hand made? Maybe it would have done better or maybe the notches were there for the automated machinery to hold on to or something.
 
Interesting read.

Something possibly important though: the "rusting issues" happened with SEAL divers who had been *given* the blades as contract issue. I've got this mental image going of the guys just "using" the pieces without washing the salt off, using tuff-cloth or taking other elementary precautions.

It's basic psychology: if you pay $340 or more of your personal hard-earned bux for something, you'll take care of it. If it's just "issue stuff", well, maybe not.

The upshot is, this article doesn't make me distrust my WSP1 any. And pieces bought by individual troops with their own cash are likely to see similar positive results, even if they have to rely on gun lube of some sort in the field. When it rained coming back from K'nugen1 and I was wearing the WSP1 open-carry on my bike, it's edge did just fine with motorcycle chain lube. Petrolium Jelly would be as good...whatever. It's *care* that's needed, not high-tech lubes.

Jim
 
Jim,

The reported problem involved corrossion penetrating from the edge under the hard chrome finish. I am not sure how anyone can deal with this without removing the hard chrome. Hence, the bottom line for me is that the chrome + kalguard finish provide insufficient protection for salt water use.
 
Jim,

That is the whole point of the SEAL Team tests! They want a knife that KICKS ASS but does not require constant care to keep the handles from falling off
smile.gif


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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
 
It's tool steel. We know that. Leave it in a salt environment, yes, it'll rust. No news there.

This IS valuable info but it doesn't make we want to sell off my Doggy.

All that said, it would seem there ARE reasons for saying that "handle rusting" is a potential factor...just not a factor for me.

Jim
 
I would like someone to point out to me where the handle failures alluded to are described in detail. They are mentioned in the same paragraph as rust problems, but rust is not specifically given as the cause for the "handle failures". Where are the specifics about the rust failures? The article says a .25" steel blade rusted away until it failed without notice? Some may swallow that hook, line, and sinker, but I don't. There has to be more to it than that. Who would bother to strap on a knife that had rusted away to the point of breaking? SEALs go off without inspecting their gear?

Did anybody else note the mention of "chemical corrosives" in the sea water? Sea water is corrosive so why mention "chemical" corrosives unless there was some chemical agent in addition to sea water involved?

The author came to a reasonable conclusion: "Clearly, carbon steel, regardless of the plating or coating process present, could not be expected to resist the rigors of SEAL use." Mike would apparently have us think that only applied to Mad Dog knives and not every other "carbon steel" knife on the planet.

And what does this have to do with your test Mike? I wonder how a Busse Basic would have fared with those SEALs with its handle that seperated visibly from the tang when you sawed it in half?

And how about putting this information in the context of the experience of thousands of Mad Dog owners who are not SEALs, and whose handles have not failed?

Whay are you so relentlessly trying to discredit one of the best hard use knives made?

I would bet money that in his entire sojourn on the WWW, Kevin McClung hasen't posted as many negative statements about other people as you and Spark have about him alone in the last two or three days.

Mike, you have entirely lost all sense of proportion and perspective on this issue. The Busse is a great knife, I will take your word for it. The molded handle on the two production knives absorbs more impact and vibration, I will accept that too (I wish you had said that in your review). So why this huge gang bang on Kevin McClung? I really would like to know what he said about you in that alleged private e-mail to someone else, that could possibly justify all this public defamation.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 08 November 1999).]
 
Steve, your above post is so preposterous I'm not even going to comment on it. I'd take that bet of yours, but again, I don't like taking money unfairly....

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Spark,

Don't let a concern for fairness invade your thinking at this point. Go on over to the Mad Dog forum or wherever and do some searches. I'll give you a buck for every nasty Mad Dog post you find, anywhere on the internet. I'll even spot you a buck for the alleged but not revealed insults in the private email to Jim and Tim. You give me a buck for every Mad Dog jab over here since Mike launched his update to the 7" test concerning Mad Dog thread. I didn't think even an idiot would take me up on that point, but I have no compunctions against taking money from you.
 
Maybe I can put some things into perspective here.

First of all, Mike and Spark are apparently upset because Mad Dog has allegedly claimed that they knew of no handle failures due to rust. I have not seen them make the claim, though *I* did claim that we never had any field operators complain about corrosion of the Mad Dogs that we've distributed. If Mad Dog indeed made the claim that none of his knives have failed due to salt water corrosion, AND there is documentation showing that Mad Dog handle failure was due to specifically to salt water corrosion, then perhaps we have a real argument here. Until then, all of us are still getting our panties in a bind about speculation.

Secondly, I understand Mike to say that in the "private" or not-so-private emails to Jim March and myself, Kevin calls him a liar and a cheat. While I admit that Kevin is not exactly complimentary to Mike in the emails, nowhere does he imply across the board that Mike Turber is a "liar and a cheat." Only when Mike refused to believe that the knife in question was a reject, did Kevin question Mike's integrity, believing that Mike was intentionally trying to defame Kevin by testing a knife that he knew was a fake.

As an aside, I know Kevin personally. He is a valued friend and business associate. In all my dealings with him, he has shown to be a generous man with impeccable integrity. I have seen him work in his shop, and he is downright fanatical about quality control in his shop. I've seen the accumulated reject pile, and most of them could have easily passed even the strictest scrutiny. (No, I don't remember if they had notches in the tang.)

His initial reaction to Mike's testing and subsequent questioning of Kevin's claim that the knife was counterfeit is, in my eyes, understandable. Mad Dog Knives is not a huge corporation or factory. It is a mom and pop operation. When someone finds perceived fault with a product and points to a manufacturer, there tends to be a feeding frenzy in which countless others join in the fray. I have firsthand experience of this when a similar thing happened to us on a distribution list. Anyway, when Kevin offered a truthful explanation to why a product failed, he expected that a fellow man in the industry would accept it.

Oh well, like Mike said, just give it a few weeks and like everything else, it will pass.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment
 
Steve, interesting you would challenge him to find a nasty Maddog post. Hard to do since the messages for the last year all um....vanished. As for finding them just since the 7" test, well, maybe he hasnt told Mrs Maddog what to say yet. But back to the handle failures. Maybe you are right, not only is Mike and Spark in on the conspiracy, Greg and fighting knives was also in on it!!!. Even worse, the Navy seals were in on it!!!! OH MY GOD, this was all planned years ago. This must go to the highest level of the gov't. Are any of us safe? Are Mike and the seals after us all???

 
Steve, I think the point is that the Magazine states that the seals had handle failures and MD claims he has never had any problems. If his claims are true then the magazine is lying about his knife problems. I again find this hard to believe with the many other positive statements about his knives in the mag and with the articles that they published by him. If they hated him I don't think that they would publish his works. Thus many of us question his word not his ability to make a good knife that is a given.
 
Steve, I'd take you up on that bet, but you don't have that much money.

Tim, you are partially correct.

We didn't have any problems at all until we received emails containing information claiming that the knife was a reject and that the notches "proved" it. What really upset us though was the allegations that we were not only lying and biased, but the changing stories we are hearing. Not to mention the complete lack of credibility in the claims that were being made, with holes big enough to drive buses through.

Mike and I are reasonable guys. If Mad Dog had emailed us saying, "Hey, the knife you have is a reject (or stolen), that's what the notches mean. Remove it from the tests and I'll have one of my dealers provide you with one of the ones in stock so you can see what they really perform like", Mike and I would have been more than happy to take him up on the offer. We'd even have taken a knife from him directly. It wouldn't matter. The last thing we want is bad information out there, and we certainly don't want to be the ones spreading it.

Had we refused him, he'd have a valid beef. But he didn't even bother to make that step, let alone contact us. Neither did any dealer.

But sneaking around questioning our integrity and calling us liars behind our backs is not a sign of a honorable man with impeccable integrity. Refusing to answer these questions isn't exactly confidence inspiring either.

This is all smoke and mirrors now. He's dug his own grave with his mouth as a shovel, which isn't a big shock because he's done so often in the past. The difference here is that we're not willing to back down from his BS. And we've got the facts lined up behind us.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 08 November 1999).]
 
Spark,

Both you and Mike are biased. So am I. We all have personal bias. There is nothing any one of us can do about it. What we must do is try to put the bias aside as much as possible, and that is all anyone can ask. I think we all agree on this part.

So, the question then, is not one of bias, but one of accuracy and integrity. Yours and Mikes was not in question, even in Kevin's emails, UNTIL Mike decided to reject Kevin's explanation that the knife in question (KIQ) was a counterfeit. While to an outsider, Kevin's reaction may be appear extreme, consider the possiblity he is trying to make a living and feed a family of five and now someone is refusing to believe his explanation that a knife had not performed up to his own expectations because it was a counterfeit.

As explained before, Kevin did not wish to provide a replacement for testing because he did not care about the test. Now, you as a knifemaker or whatever may have responded differently (felt the need to defend your good name, have your knife perform in front of others, etc.,) He did not. It is his choice and the simple decision to not be included in a retest is not unreasonable. Simply a different choice than you would make.

But sneaking around questioning our integrity and calling us liars behind our backs is not a sign of a honorable man with impeccable integrity.
Click to expand...

Reread the emails. He may say he doesn't care about Mike or the testing, he may even say that IN HIS OPINION, Mike is jaded by relationships with Busse/Cold Steel, etc., But nowhere is there a wholesale attack on Mike's integrity, though there may be cautious doubt. I quote Mad Dog, when he writes about why he does not wish to enter a protracted battle on this forum:

Turber has of late shown some evidence of good character re: the Allen Blade/MEUK thing, which he later waffled on for some obscure reason.Hence, I remain hopeful but unconvinced that he really has my best interests at heart.
Click to expand...

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment
 
Tim, one thing you have to realize is that prior to Jim sending us that first email (10/31), we had *zero* knowledge that this knife could be a fake or stolen, or whatever.
We waited until we had permission from Jim to post this information before we came forward with it. Since then, the controversy has raged on.

Look at it from out point of view: You do a test on a knife, and instead of contacting you directly that the knife is stolen / a reject, the Manufacturer tells everyone else. Not my first choice of actions, it's hardly credible. Then we get the changing of the stories that it's now probably a shop knife. Uh huh. I'm still not convinced that the marks even mean what they are claimed to mean, after all, we're not the only people to have seen them on Mad Dog knives. Add to that Allen Blade's testimony that they destroyed all such knives on the spot during that time frame, and the natural bewilderment of putting 2 symetrical notches (that just out and out look like holding notches) on the tang of the knife where it would be hidden from view, instead of putting one notch on the blade where everyone would see it, and you have a whole bunch of "reasonable doubt". Keep in mind that the original picture of that knife was over a month earlier, plenty of time to get us word that the knife was stolen / fake / reject.

So, do we reject the claims that the knife was a reject / stolen / shop knife? Not completely, we are open minded and it could be entirely true. However, we are sending the knife out for Rockwell Testing, and that should answer any failed heat treating questions.

Second, we didn't reject the notion that the knife was stolen, etc, we were understanding about it and more than willing to repeat the tests with any ATAK currently out there. So, clearly, we are trying to do the right thing, no matter what. We even offered to publically apologize to Kevin on the forums here, yet there's still no compromise.

Third, I've reread all the emails that we've gotten, and given this quote -
Given his well known antipathy towards all things Mad Dog, I am just as happy to let it/him "lie", as it were.
Click to expand...
I'd say it's pretty clear what Mad Dog was trying to say. If that isn't an statement saying he thinks Mike was lying, I don't know what is. Don't pretend it means something else, nobody is that dumb.

Look Tim, that email is filled with half truth's and contradictory statements, which isn't a big suprise. But let's not kid ourselves. We tried our hardest to do the right thing here, and we made every effort.

You reap what you sow. It's that simple. If you want to call me a liar, be prepared to be challenged on it. If you want to say that the knife was stolen or a reject, guess what, you've just created a whole new set of problems for yourself, not me. As Rich Lucibella likes to say, "Think twice, post once", and when you fail to examine the consequences of what you are about to say, well, who is to blame? Not my fault the stories don't hold up under scrutiny... nor is it my fault that he's nowhere to be found when it's his turn on the skillet, yet is quite ready to turn up the heat on others. Lord knows he's cooked more than a few in the past....

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
In my day,one of the acceptance tests was to withstand 1,000 hrs.of salt water spray.I`m kind of out of this as I own all of Kevin`s ceramic composites.I do not like the looks of his others.I bought a Timberline Spec War at MIL Sales.It was cheap.I have never used it.I don`t even like to look at it.A Randall is something to look at.I`m going to try MD`s ceramacs for those blade dulling things on deer this year.I shot one with a 1911 .45,just because I was wearing it ,and the operator zipped right through the sternum cartilage.A Mod.29 is in the holster now.I should try the 10MM,and the .45 Super this year.

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Well said, Spark.

And Mike,...I think the answer is.."misstrial"?

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Yeah! Drop the chalupa...


 
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