Non refundable deposit on work?

Raymond Richard

Raymond Richard

Joined
Jun 17, 2001
Messages
5,705
I had finshed up a piece for a fellow that seemed very intent on following threw with the purchase. I have got one response from him saying his work schedual is such that he can't get to a post office or a bank to get either a money order or a certified check. He also says he won't use plastic or personal checks. After giving this more thought I had remembered taken another order 3 years ago that was so simular to this one I am now thinking its the same person. Screw me once, screw me twice, but its not going to happen a third time. At least thats what I'm telling myself.

Is asking for a non refundable deposit to much? If not what percent would be appropriate? I'm not out any money on the piece and I'm sure I can sell it for what I was going to charge the customer but it just pisses me off.
 
No check, no plastic, and no money orders? How does he plan on paying anyway?

Is the knife finished, or are you taking an order?
 
If he is going to be able to send you a deposit then he should be able to send you the full payment.

I have no problem with deposits, as long as they are reasonable. Ten percent on an easy to resell knife, and up to payment in full on a knife that might be very difficult to resell.
 
I don't take orders that I don't think I can sell at a show or on my web site. I have had a couple of people order then they won't answer the phone ect. After a while I just sell it to someone else.
Reggie
 
Tell him he can put the cash in an envelope and send that, at his risk of course! Or have his wife or a friend get him a money order.
 
Raymond Richard said:
I had finshed up a piece for a fellow that seemed very intent on following threw with the purchase.
Click to expand...
So the work is complete.
I have got one response from him saying his work schedual is such that he can't get to a post office or a bank to get either a money order or a certified check. He also says he won't use plastic or personal checks. After giving this more thought I had remembered taken another order 3 years ago that was so simular to this one I am now thinking its the same person. Screw me once, screw me twice, but its not going to happen a third time. At least thats what I'm telling myself.
Click to expand...
You are saying that you think he will want the deposit money back, and/or that he won't follow up on the final payment?
Is asking for a non refundable deposit to much? If not what percent would be appropriate? I'm not out any money on the piece and I'm sure I can sell it for what I was going to charge the customer but it just pisses me off.
Click to expand...
In the instance three years ago, what happened? Did you have to send someone back a deposit? I'm unclear.

At any rate it is certainly frustrating.

Coop
 
Coop, No money changed hands. Its a matter of him telling me what he's wanting and then when the project is complete he's not around. Up untill completion he was in contact with me but now I feel the whole thing is just a farse. I have never asked for a deposit before but now I think its something I need to be doing.
 
Gotcha. His loss = someone else's gain. Post this baby for sale, dagnabit! :)

Coop
 
Did it a couple times.Always felt very awkward paying in advance for something.Had some problems(financial) one time.Had given a deposit .Lost it.
No biggee except the maker could sell everything he produces anyway.

Randy
 
I think that's one of the risks we take as makers. There's always a chance that someone is going to back out on an order. As a general rule I will not take deposits for two reasons. First it just doesn't feel right for me to have a person's money, and them not have a product. Secondly, I hate working on a deadline, and when you take someone's money, your basically their slave. If you take money, your obligated to get that knife done on the date you say, and have it to the individual. Where I make an exception to my rule is for very unusual orders that part from my normal knives. On these I require a 50% non-refundable deposit. This doesn't happen very often, as I usually turn down orders for something that is "out there", but if someone does talk me into it, that's the deal.

As for your situation, I would email/phone the individual and just flat tell him he has X number of days to send payment or the knife goes up for sale to the general public. Make sure you have his name, and let it be known to other makers...soon this individual will not be able to order a knife from anyone.
 
Personally, I have nothing against a $150 (or so) deposit. That's an amount which is small enough that I can live without it for a few months or even a couple of years, but big enough that I don't want to loose it.

I agree with Ed that it also puts additional pressure on the maker. However, if you're disciplined, it doesn't have to be hell. You just need to explain to the customer that this is just to seal the order, and that it does *not* mean an accelerated schedule or any abnormal privilege.

Howard Clark does it this way, and in my opinion that's not a bad system.
 
I will not pay a deposit on a knife. I would if I was asking a maker to make something totally weird that would not sell later, or used a lot of expensive raw materials (ie gold, pearl, ivory, etc.). I don't care for overly weird knives or overly ornate so it hasn't been an issue. Personalization would be another situation in which I would put down a deposit.

If the knife can be sold later, then the maker isn't out anything except a guaranteed sale. If I were a maker I would be hesitant to make anything I didn't think would sell anyway, just because I wouldn't want my name on some monstrosity down the way.
 
When I get an order for a hand made folder I usually agree on a price after hearing what the customer expects or wants. Then I ask for half down in advance, the rest upon email or phone noticfication that the knife they ordered from me is completed. If a check I usually wait for it to clear.

The only time I don't do this is if it is a repeat customer or I know them. I don't think there should be any problem so long as you state your terms up front. Changing horses mid stream can obviously cause some problems at times. It can be done but you might get a little wet doing it. Metaphorically speaking.

I have never discussed the refund option. As far as I'm concerned a man is only as good as his word. Chances are I'd refund the money minus a ding for backing out. It probably needs to be worked out in advance but so far none of my customers have given me need to worry about that aspect of it. Everyone that buys from me knows that I offer a refund if they are not happy with the knife I made. They simply send it back and when I get it and inspect it they get a refund minus shipping. I really don't want a knife out there that they find fault in and if it is indeed faulty I want to know about it.

So far that has not happened to me though and I hope it doesn't. I have no problem meeting a deadline. If I tell someone it will be done by a certain time it gets done period.
 
There was a time in my career, that I required full payment before I would light my forge. I don't do that any longer, I don't even ask for a deposit, unless it's some really high end project, and I've never dealt with the individual.
Now, when a knife is finished, I call, and tell them it's done, and when I receive payment, the knife is shipped.

When someone orders a knife, they need to be man, or woman enough, to follow through with payment. They also need to understand, that alot of us makers do this full time, and this is our only income. So when someone orders a knife and "Crawfishes" it puts us, me, makers in a bind. Bladesmiths have bills too!
I understand circumstances do arise, and if, when they do, please have enough common courtesy, to call the maker and cansel the order, don't wait until the knife is finished and he calls you. Sure the maker can probably sell the knife, but it maybe a week or a month later, and he could have been working on another paying order.

Raymond, I would send the guy a certified letter, and if he didn't respond, put him on the "watchout" list.
Knifemakers are a pretty closeknitt group, and the word will get out.
Ok, I've rambled enough.............
S.Dunn
 
An alternative to the solution I proposed is to only ask the deposit when you actually start the knife. That adds further logistic complication, but it could make sense.
 
I've never seen a problem with asking someone you don't know from Adam to put some money where their mouth is as a sign of good faith. I've also never had any problems in recieving little pieces of green paper with deceased notibles on them when it was volunteered. Whip it out in my general vicinity and you will find that I'm more than happy to recieve it from you.

If I called or contacted a knife maker that I had never spoken with or met before I would fully expect to be asked to make a good faith deposit. If not I at least volunteer that to them. If they don't take it that is their call. I do the same when I see a car or property I am interested in. It is business afterall and in my mind it is to be expected and just a common courtesy. In most cases I'd have no problem refunding the money unless circumstances were such that the knife was done and the guy now backs out before he has even seen it and after I made it to his specs. To each their own though.

I had a guy contact me last week that wanted to know if I could make him a fixed blade and a folder to match out of D2 for blade steel. I told him sure that was something I had done before but I don't routinely stock bar stock of D2. In cases like that it is an undue hardship for a knife maker to have to order something he doesn't have that hasn't been paid for yet so the deposit is really necessary to help pay for some of the materials needed for the job. I pointed out to this gentleman that I would expect him to buy the knives since I am special ordering the D2 just for him with part of his deposit.

In my mind it is just a matter of communication. It is how I do business when I'm the buyer so I expect the same when I'm the seller I guess. A do unto others as you would have them do unto you kind of thing.
 
I don't mind paying a reasonable deposit for something special that requires the maker to buy special material, [like narwaal tusk] and that might not be easy to resell. I also don't mind if they haven't dealt with me before or don't know who I am. But I have to have an equal measure of faith in them too. A reasonable deposit is a fair compromise for both sides.
 
A deposit is only reasonable when for a token amount (10%) or for the cost of materials (Ivory or purchased damascus for example).

Anything more than that and there is much more potential for potential hassle if the maker is running behind or takes the deposit and doesn't deliver timely. Or if the maker gets sick, disabled, etc. and that deposit money disappears.

Ray, I am sure if you started taking deposits, the amount of calls you recieve will increase exponentally from people loking for that knife they were promised in a certain time frame. It is a bit of a catch-22.

My advice to buyers is NEVER pay a deposit unless it is for a small amount or for cost of supplies. That way the maker has an incentive to produce and the buyer has the ability to back out with only a small loss if the finished product is not what they expected in terms of design or quality.
 
Anthony, the maker still has plenty of incentive to make the knife if he wants the rest of his money and if he wants to keep his reputation intact after taking a deposit. If a customer (a stranger mind you in most cases) starts balking at having to pay a deposit I just don't know how serious I could take the order or the word of the man/woman placing the order if they contacted me and are not prepared to pay something up front to start the wheels rolling.

I agree that if a knife maker is concerned that he can't deliver on a specified date or give anything more than a guess as to when the knife will be done that he should probably not take money in advance so he doesn't piss anyone one off but to advise that buyers not pay a deposit to those of us that can deliver on a deadline and do so routinely is really shooting your fellow knife makers in the foot that feel the opposite way about deposits.

On my knife modifications and repairs I get full payment up front with the knife to be repaired. If my book keeping wife had her way it would be that way for hand made knives also but I have never had a problem working on a deadline. I actually seem to function better knowing I have to have something done by such and such time for someone. It gets me up in the morning.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top