Noob Needs Help

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DemonicMind666

Joined
Dec 6, 2015
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I've been trying to teach myself how to sharpen knives, hatchets, machetes, etc. Today I actually got a cheap knife sharp enough to slice paper and shave a few hairs off my arm. I decided to try a technique I've heard of people doing to get the edge a little cleaner and less toothy. I grabbed a piece of notebook paper, put it on my fine stone, and started stropping my knife on it. Done that for a minute or so and then it wouldn't even slice paper, it just tore it. I'm not looking to be a knife sharpening expert. I shake too much to be able to get anything but a useable edge. I just want to be able to make a knife "shaving" sharp. Especially since I'm wanting to try my hand in making random knives once I learn more about materials and metal, etc.
 
Hello fellow,
what kind of stone?
what angle are you using and how are you maintaining it?
have you managed to raise a burr?
step 1 is rub one side until you raise a burr , switch sides, raise a burr on other side
step 2 is cut off the burr at double the angle
how to sharpen a knife - Joe Calton
 
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Nice user name! Maybe that's why you shake so much......
 
If stropping on paper made the edge worse is likely you have residual burrs on the edge. Take a close look at the edge. Strop on paper at the same grind angle for a few passes, and then elevate the spine for a few more light passes at slightly higher angle. It works better done over a coarse stone.

You can also apply some compound to the paper and use it like a strop, just go fairly light and same angle.
 
Might also be some burrs folded over, if pressure was a bit too heavy with the paper-on-stone, and/or if the angle was a little too high, putting too much lateral pressure against the edge. I've done that myself, and it'll create new burrs if going too heavy with it.

Another possibility is the steel itself. Some steels will be a lot more ductile, and burrs don't always come off with just paper or bare leather alone (VG-10, ATS-34, 420HC often behave like this, for example). Sometimes compound on the strop will be needed to gently abrade the burrs away, instead of other methods which try to remove them by folding side-to-side or simply tearing them off the edge; some steels just don't respond to that, and the burrs will hang on forever without the use of something abrasive.


David
 
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The steel is 440 Stainless. I'll try it again today and see if it works any better using your tips. Thanks, fellas.
 
DM: If you are not careful, stropping can round off the edge rather than polishing it. I used to do that myself a lot when I first started stropping. I'd have a nice paper cutting edge after coming off the stones, then I'd dull it by stropping too much. Trick is to use the right amount of pressure and the right stropping angle. You are only trying to remove any burr left over from sharpening, and perhaps polish the edge a little. There is a very good sticky at the top of this forum that helped me figure out what I was doing wrong. I recommend reading all of the stickies, in fact. You can skip the one on paper wheels if you are planning on freehanding, though.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/750008-Stropping-angle-plus-pressure is the one on stropping.
 
Here's a good technique to figure out your stropping angle:

Slowly and lightly run the blade *forward* on the strop. This the wrong direction. Slowly raise the angle of the blade as you do this. Soon, you will feel the edge bite into the stropping media. Stop! This angle, or just a hair lower is the correct stropping angle. With soft backed strops, you want to back off a few degrees. With hard strops, this angle should be very close to dead on correct.

Brian.
 
I have decided I'm gong to wait on stropping until I get a real leather strop. For now I'm just going to focus on getting the fundamentals of sharpening down. I feel that I'm getting better. Building up a bur on one side, switching until I build up a bur on the other, then minimizing the bur before moving onto the next stone and using the same technique. I even got a cheap balisong, that I bought the other day to play with, sharp enough to shave some hair off of my arm. Think I'm starting to get the hang of it.
 
DemonicMind666 said:
I have decided I'm gong to wait on stropping until I get a real leather strop. For now I'm just going to focus on getting the fundamentals of sharpening down. I feel that I'm getting better. Building up a bur on one side, switching until I build up a bur on the other, then minimizing the bur before moving onto the next stone and using the same technique. I even got a cheap balisong, that I bought the other day to play with, sharp enough to shave some hair off of my arm. Think I'm starting to get the hang of it.
Click to expand...

congratulations :) the obsession begins :)
 
Still not doing to well. Tried to sharpen and old beat up Cold Steel SRK today, and, while I did get it sharper than it was, I couldn't get it very sharp. Not sure if I'm using the wrong technique (I sharpen on one side until I feel a slight burr folded over on the other, then switch and do the same on the other side), wrong angle, or not spending enough time on the stones.
 
DemonicMind666 said:
Still not doing to well. Tried to sharpen and old beat up Cold Steel SRK today, and, while I did get it sharper than it was, I couldn't get it very sharp. Not sure if I'm using the wrong technique (I sharpen on one side until I feel a slight burr folded over on the other, then switch and do the same on the other side), wrong angle, or not spending enough time on the stones.
Click to expand...

Would you describe how you sharpened in as much detail as you can?
what angle are you using?
is it the original edge angle?
how much time did you spend?
what did you do to remove the burr?
does the knife wobble a lot in your hand?
what kind of stone are you using? lubricant(water) or dry?
how much force (stone on bathroom/food scale do a few passes, how many pounds)?


It could be as simple as you did not remove the burr, so its still there just folded, not cutting paper well

or it could be instead of cutting off (removing) the burr you cut off the edge as well

cutting off the edge could happen in a few ways
you went 90 degrees and just cut into the stone
you're shaking and wobbling so much you accidentally cut into the stone
your stone has a high spot and you dug into it, the effect being same as trying to cut the stone, knife goes dull

or it could be you've raised a burr on both sides but edge is still flat/dull in the middle (I've done it lots)
if you look at your edge under a strong flashlight you will see a reflection


since you're starting, good practice is three 5 minute sharpenings,
this is one 5 minute sharpening
use a thin 1-4 inch paring knife (short thin sharpens faster ),
using scrubbing pass (knife on stone, back and forth)
your goal is to raise a burr you can feel and see, big burrs benefit beginners
scrub for a full minute, or for a 120 back and forth passes,
then check for burr, if there is burr, flip side
if no burr, scrub for another minute
then do the same time on other side
once you have a burr on both sides
try cutting some paper

now double the angle (or go for 35-40 degrees)
and do 2-4 lighter passes per side to cut off the burr (not scrubbing, just forward, edge leading )
try cutting paper again, if its not a lot better

do another 2-4 lighter lighter passes per side
try cutting paper again, if its not a lot better

back to original angle (or slightly higher angle)
and do 10-20 light passes per side
and try cutting paper again

knife very sharp now? it didn't work?
stop, take a break, for a few minutes


counting while you sharpen or singing a song
or set an egg timer/alarm
helps you not spend an hour trying to raise a burr


break is over, usin same short thin paring knife, repeat raising burr and cutting it off a second time, 5 more minutes
then take another break
then repeat this a third time, the last 5 minutes

doing three sharpenings of the same knife should help you figure it out
or at least figure out where you need help



my problems were so much shaking and wobbling at first (up down and left right),
then it was forgetting what angle i was sharpening
so do 50 passes on one angle, then change it, then change it again ...
and i wasn't using scrubbing passes so it was very very slow
then I was going very very light (under half a pound) of force
then i was using too much my arm got sore
then I was using lower angle each time so it was always taking a long time
then I didn't count or set an alarm so it would just stretch out into half hour or more
 
DemonicMind666 said:
Still not doing to well. Tried to sharpen and old beat up Cold Steel SRK today, and, while I did get it sharper than it was, I couldn't get it very sharp. Not sure if I'm using the wrong technique (I sharpen on one side until I feel a slight burr folded over on the other, then switch and do the same on the other side), wrong angle, or not spending enough time on the stones.
Click to expand...

This is a good time to inspect the edge close-up under a magnifier (5X-10X) with very BRIGHT LIGHT. Most issues like this will be caused by inconsistent technique; not holding the angle steady (rounding), using too much pressure (rolling/burring the edge), or not actually apexing the edge, or any combination of those things. If you are forming a burr at some point, it may just be that the edge is being rounded off in the attempts to reduce the burr or flip it. Looking at the edge with a brightly-illuminated magnifier will reveal a lot. If the edge is too thick (edge angle too wide), rounded, flat or otherwise 'blunt' at all, it'll be seen pretty easily when viewed under adequate magnification. A dull edge is a glaringly ugly thing when inspected up-close under bright light. Even edges that do cut pretty well usually aren't as 'pretty' when inspected this way. The cutting performance will always reveal HOW dull an edge is, and an up-close and brightly-lit visual inspection will always reveal WHY it's dull.

It occurs to me, we still don't know what type of stone/tool is being used; I don't see anything in previous posts mentioning it. This could just be a case of using a stone/tool that's just not up to the job, and may be complicating things even further. A badly-glazed (worn) stone could create issues like this, for example; or a 'cheap' natural or synthetic stone can create problems of their own sometimes (rough edges, excessive burring, inadequate grinding of steel used, etc).


David
 
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I'm not sure what kind of stones I have. It's just a couple that my dad had laying around. I keep them in a bucket of water, because then I don't have to wait on them to soak, I can just grab them and start sharpening. I think I did do ok today though. Worked on my hatchet and axe and got them both sharp enough to shave (some) hair off my arm. I decided to try stropping on a piece of paper again. I think it worked out better this time. It wouldn't slice paper before I stropped, and afterward it did.
 
Use a bright light to inspect the edges, any spot that reflects back has not been apexed.

There's a quite a ways sharper than what our eyes can see, but if you apex it well enough to not get any reflections then you are at/approaching shaving sharp.

Approach this like Filing/sanding wood, you start off with low grit to get the piece close to final shape, then you progress through the grits to polish the finish.
It's important to make sure the scratches from the last grit are replaced by the scratches from the current grit
 
DemonicMind666 said:
I'm not sure what kind of stones I have. It's just a couple that my dad had laying around. I keep them in a bucket of water, because then I don't have to wait on them to soak, I can just grab them and start sharpening. I think I did do ok today though. Worked on my hatchet and axe and got them both sharp enough to shave (some) hair off my arm. I decided to try stropping on a piece of paper again. I think it worked out better this time. It wouldn't slice paper before I stropped, and afterward it did.
Click to expand...

congratulations :)

if you whittle or shave some wood or chop at the wood a little, does it still slice paper afterwards or does it snag at the point where you touched the wood?

i find if I cut the burr off on the stone (at double angle) once or twice
stropping on paper/cardboard... doesn't improve the edge

I also find it quicker than stropping
 
Haven't really tested it. I know I can sharpen it good enough to cut paper, but after a few minutes of work it doesn't slice paper anymore. Not sure if I'm stropping at the wrong angle or not taking enough time or if I'm just terrible. Lol
 
DemonicMind666, there is a lot of great advice here. I won't try to add to the technical info presented here since I am still a relative noob myself. However, I will reiterate that practice plays a huge role in improving your sharpening competence. I went so far as to buy a very cheap knife on the exchange, repeatedly intentionally dull it and then re-sharpen it. I did this multiple times daily for a few weeks, and it greatly helped me to develop my skills. I still use this technique (intentionally dulling then re-sharpening) when trying a new sharpening tool or technique. Many of us (me included) get WAY too focused on the tools and processes, when in reality the skill of the sharpener has the biggest impact on ones ability sharpen a knife.
 
Don't stress angles yet.

Get a feel for consistency. When you put it to the stone watch, feel, and listen for how the grinding changes from when you're on the bevel, or on the edge. If you see slurry build up on the edge, you're probably a bit high. Practice until you can identify when you're at the edge without overextending. Move to the next stone when you feel you've hit the entire length. Using a flashlight to check for reflections helps.

Also pay attention to the scratch patterns left on the bevel. You want the high grit scratches to completely replace the low grit. As you go higher you're not trying to remove as much so don't try to "redo" the edge with the higher grit. Refine it, lighter passes until you've made a new scratch pattern.

Stropping is simple, too much angle will roll/dull it. Too little won't touch the edge, but won't hurt. Choosing to err on the side of too little is perfectly fine.

Look around youtube for videos because people sharpen in a lot of different positions. I was surprised to see so many ways that people consistently get results with.
 
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