Noob "Old File" question

C

Celtic Archer

Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
28
Ok, through no fault of my own I have gathered up all the things I will need to make a couple of blades.................I think.

I have a whole buttload of old files that I have gathered up, I've built my coffee can furnace and I'm ready to try to make a couple of real simple capers from my junk files. They don't have to be able to shave a gnats buttcheeks after chopping down a redwood, but I would like to make them as decent as possible and hold an edge at least enough to make it through dressing out a hog.

Can someone give me some knowledge on what kind of steel these are likely to be, and a simple method of heat treating it.

Or maybe point me to a step by step kind of thing for "old file" knives somewhere.
 
First of all...I would not recommend using your butt to carry around a load of files. :eek: A bit too scratchy I would THINK but that's just my opinion. And opinions are just like....HEY!!!, it's a circle of thought.:D

Sillyness aside, files are usually W1 or more likely W2. Alas, it is really a "found steel" and unless you have it tested you don't know for sure. That said, you could follow the rules for HT W2 and see what happens.

W2 is a water quench steel but one expert I read says it is best to oil quench it to minimize cracking.

Hopefully you'll get others to chime in with more knowlege. Search the forums a bit and you will find more info.
 
Thanks Kerry.

When I was looking around last night I could'nt get the search feature to work at all. It's working fine now. I've already found a good bit of info.

I was planning to use either ATF or Veggie oil as it seems like oil is just safer to use. I'm gonna be doing some experimenting anyway.

Am I close here? In a nutshell,

Heat it to non magnetic then put it in a tray of oven preheated ashes and let it cool as slowly as possible in the oven....repeat 3 times.

Cut/grind/file to shape. But not sharpened all the way

Then get it a bit hotter than non magnetic and submerge it quickly in the oil. Repeat twice

Then use a torch to anneal the spine while the edge is submerged in oil.

Final sharpen and polish

I know it's not going to be an award winner but I just want something that I can use for field dressing. A large part of making this is just me being too cheap to go buy a high quality knife. This little caper seemed like a good first noob project. After this I'm gonna dive in head first and try to make a real nice hawk to carry in the field.
 
old Nickleson, simonds and black diamond files are all high carbon, varying from 1050 to 1095. When i can pick up any of those 3 brand files for 25c each used, i usualy do. Other older files may be case hardened lower quality steel, in which case they're not really hardenable. Unfortunately unless you know the age of the file, and the manufacturer lists their materials someplace you can obtain... most old files are just 'mystery steel' best determined by spark testing.
 
Celtic Archer said:
Then use a torch to anneal the spine while the edge is submerged in oil.
Click to expand...

I would try to keep fire and oil seperate:o I would use water for this part. On a large blade you can lay the knife flat on a firebrick with the spine hanging over the edge. The edge in the water trick is probably more controlable though. There are several ways to skin that cat.

Experience with this is a good teacher. Just be safe.
 
Justin.Mercier said:
old Nickleson, simonds and black diamond files are all high carbon, varying from 1050 to 1095. When i can pick up any of those 3 brand files for 25c each used, i usualy do. Other older files may be case hardened lower quality steel, in which case they're not really hardenable. Unfortunately unless you know the age of the file, and the manufacturer lists their materials someplace you can obtain... most old files are just 'mystery steel' best determined by spark testing.
Click to expand...

Woohoo. Almost all of my current stack are Black Diamonds.
 
Celtic Archer,

You've got some of the procedure down, but there is a little more to consider. Before you quench take the blades to just below non-magnetic and let them cool in still air. This is the normalizing step and should be done 2-3 times. Heating to non-magnetic and slow cooling in ashes or vermiculite is annealing and one time is OK. Peanut oil is a good quench medium. It has a high flash point, smells better, and you can safely dispose of it when you want. It's been pointed out that those old files may well be close to 1095 and you can follow that thinking with the heat treat. This means bringing up to non-magnetic, count to 5, get it in the oil quickly. Don't hesitate here. Very important to get in the oil in the shortest possible time. You can edge quench by putting only the bottom edge in the oil. This will allow you to forgo drawing the spine with heat. Keep the blade in the oil (off the bottom) until smoke clears and then it can be fully submerged. Let it cool enough to handle and wipe the oil off and put it in an oven at 375 for an hour. Let it cool to room temp and back in 400 for another hour. That's it, at least this has worked well for me on 1095 and this type of old file steel. Other guys will be a little different in their techniques. Try it and see what works best for you in your shop.

Rick
 
I've worked a couple of old files and have found the principle difference on heat treat from 1095 is the files like a longer soak than 1095 before the quench. (I count 45 with files versus 10-15 for 1095) This of course only works for files sufficiently close to 1095, and before you put the handle on when working with a mystery steel it should be tested to determine if the heat treat worked. (no point in wasting the time of putting the handle on if it just looks like a knife)

My procedure for heat treating 1095 is here
http://www.geocities.com/son_of_bluegrass/heattreat.html

ron
 
I'm not sure where Justin.Mercier got his information, but I have heard that files are W1 or W2.
 
ritzblitz said:
I'm not sure where Justin.Mercier got his information, but I have heard that files are W1 or W2.
Click to expand...

I once heard that old saw blades were all L-6...;) Don't believe everything that you hear. Old files were probably made out of whatever the manufacturer decided was the most cost effective and easiest for them to treat. Could be any number of steels, unless it is anylized it is unknown. In any case, have fun with them. :D -Matt-
 
Files are made from "File Steel" and saws are made from "saw Blade steel". That is about as close as you are going to get short of having the batch number of a specific run of files. 1095, W1,and W2 are all about the same. What Justin was referring to is that usable files are .5% to .95% carbon steel, and work about the same as 1050-1095.
I would recommend using a known metal to learn on,and saving the files for playing with after you acquire some proficiency. Nothing spells frustration more that not knowing exactly what you are doing and not knowing what you are doing it with.
Get some 1080 to start with, It is the simplest steel to work and HT. I'll send you a couple of bars if you shoot me an email.
Stacy
 
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