Noob ? on steel "rankings"

B

bill_G

Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
694
Newbie here!!

Is the following "rankings" fairly accurate in regard to whats premium and whats not? Please correct this list to be more accurate and help me make better buying decisions.

"top" steels

S30
D2
VG10
??

"good" steel

ATS34
Aus8
440
??

"average" steel
sub zero quenched (cold steel)
Aus6
??
??

what am i missing, and what is in wrong place.

thanks, Bill
 
Top:
INFI
3V
VG10
S30V

Good:
ATS34
154CM
ATS55
AUS10
BG42
A2
D2
52100
440c

Okay:
440A
440B
AUS8
AUS6
1095 (etc.)


All of this is subjective. It really depends on what you're going to use it for. For instance, 3V will out-perform 440C in the woods (proper heat treat is assumed), but 440C would make a much better knife for diving or work around salt water. This has all been said a billion times before. 'Best' steels are up to the user, and everyone has an opinion. ;)
 
Wow, is your top list out of whack JD, shows what good marketing hype can do.

As 2 of the top custom makers have told me in the last year, among the top 2 or 3 steels, if they are heat treated correctly, there isnt much difference. Certainly not enough performance difference for the casual user to discern.

It also depends on your preferences, ease of sharpening, etc.
 
Gotta agree with lifter. Any of the Super steels BG42,S30V,3V, etc. I can't tell the difference in even sharpening as they all suck to sharpen. The only steels I have found I don't like are ATS34 or 154CM, as I have had problems with it chipping out on me and the real lower steels such as AUS6,420,440A, etc. as the ones I have had didn't hold an edge that well at all. Each steel definitely has it's own qualities and a great custom maker will bring those out in the steel, bill G if you ever get the chance chat with Jerry Hossom he will blow your mind with his knowledge of steel properties. And what ever you do DON'T believe ANY marketing hype it is all made to sell knives and that is it.
 
most steels can be top steels when they're done right... including 440C/N690 (see Benchmade's lower priced models like the Griptillians, Rants, Gamers) and 8A (see AG Russell camp knives)...

Edit:
the steels i consider top steels and an example of a company that does it well:
154CM/ATS34 (see AG Russell knives), A2 (see Bark River knives), D2 (see Dozier knives), 1095 (see Ka Bar knives), 0170-6C (see Becker K&T knives), 12C27 (see Bark River knives), VG10 (see Spyderco knives), S30V (see Benchmade knives), 8A/10A (see AG Russell knives), 440C/N690 (see Benchmade knives)...
 
bill,

I think most of us start out creating these neat little lists. It allows us to confidently apply objective criteria to our knife purchases. As we get more knowledgeable, we start figuring out that the lists have important weaknesses -- for example, if I'm doing a job that requires strength more than anything, 1095 (which showed up low on JD's list) hardened to very high Rc looks good, despite not having the best abrasion resistance or toughness. And S60V, despite its incredible abrasion resistance, starts looking bad.

So that leads to the next step -- understanding two important things:
1. What are the properties of steels that matter to a knife user?
2. What particular knife jobs (e.g., food prep, cutting cardboard, etc.) put higher demands on which properties?

For example, as it turns out, cardboard often has a lot of embedded dirt and impurities. Cutting cardboard could stress steel toughness more than is intuitively obvious, because the edge could degrade more by micro-chipping out than by abrading away.

Then there's another revelation: if you go to a higher-grade steel, but don't take advantage of the "better" steel in your sharpening plan, you may not see much more performance between the better steel and the lesser steel. One of the points of better steel is that it lets you sharpen for higher performance. If you're just always sharpening your knives to the same angle all the time, regardless of whether the steel can handle a higher-performance edge profile, it just won't be worth it for you to go with the higher-end steel (particularly if the higher-end steel is more expensive).

Lastly, there comes some very specific knowledge of which knifemakers are particularly good at heat treating which steel. Heat treatment is so critical to steel performance, that this type of knowledge is, in some ways, as important as anything else. Just try out some of Bob Dozier's D2 if you want to see why.

So, make your tidy list, it will help you start out. Just realize that it's nothing but a starting point, and probably the ranking is wrong in so many situation-specific uses that you'll want to move on to more property-specific knowledge, if you're motivated.

The Steel FAQ is one place to start. It will describe some common steels, important steel properties, etc. The Sharpening FAQ will teach you more about sharpening for performance -- or, in other words, about taking advantage of better steels. Note the Steel FAQ has an attempt at the kind of list you're putting together, for stainless steels only. Within the limits I've set out -- that you really need to understand the properties -- it's my guess at how most people will find those steels, most of the time.

Steel FAQ: www.edcknives.com/pdf-files/Steel_v2.pdf
Sharpening FAQ: http://www.edcknives.com/pdf-files/Sharpen_v2.pdf

Joe
 
Heres a note: Beware of steel snobery.

I used to be a steel snob till I started messing around with slipjoints and that really changed my opinions on steel. My favorite steels are now Victorinox's, 440C, and whatever stainless Schrade is using. That said, the price better not be too high for them as I expect a good value when they are used.

They are a breeze to sharpen and despite what others will have you think they hold a great edge. Victorinox Swiss Army Knives will last me about 2 to 3 weeks of normal cutting. If a knife knut can't find the time to sharpen twice a month, something is wrong!! :rolleyes: S30V may last you a while longer, but the sharpening pain is not worth it, IMHO.

Like others have said there are different criteria for different people as to what steels are best. For me it is ease of sharpening, and how sharp you can get the edge. (Example, Victorinox SS will get scalpel sharp, while AUS6 never wants to get higher then OK sharp... Though AUS6 will hold an edge a bit longer.)
-Kevin
 
I think it's all colored by your experience. For instance I just love S30V because I've had such good luck with it. But I've also had considerable luck with 420 and 440 series as well as AUS6 and AUS8.

Really it depends on what I want to use the knife for... if I want it to be hair popping precision sharp, I generally try to get S30V or something high end. If it's a user that I'm going to sharpen "roughly" as a way as to put lots of micro serrations on the blade that I plan to dull fairly often, I seem to have lots of luck with 440 series and AUS6. I don't know how to say that and make any sense at all.

Well I guess I'm saying that if I plan on keeping a very precise edge on the blade I want a steel that's more likely to hold that edge whereas if I plan to dull the knife often I'd rather sharpen more frequently with greater ease.

For longer knives I have a hard time seeing any difference between one 10XX and the next :p

Yet arguably none of what I think I know about steel has much basis in fact. But it is human nature to stick with the devil you know or at least think you know.
 
Joe makes some good points. So much depends upon things that you cannot see, such as heat treat.

For example, I have a pretty expensive folder in S30V, my only knife in that steel. It doesn't hold an edge quite as long as some of my Carbon V folders. Needless to say, I was expecting a whole lot more. Maybe I shouldn't have been.

I haven't had a chance to test out my new skinner in 3V, but I do have some high hopes. You'd think I'd learn. My "best" steels so far? For cutting, D2 (Queen 4180, but I'd love to try a Dozier), and for chopping, 5160. Notice I tend towards the non-stainless steels.

Half the fun, though, is talking about this stuff....
 
Seems to me that you shop for a maker, not the raw material the maker uses. Dozier (D-2); Mike Stewart (A-2); Hossum (S30V); Ferhman (3V).
 
Lifter,
The most important thing that I said was that it all comes down to opinion. The steels I put at the top of my list are the ones that I, personally, like the best. For instance, I agree that 1095 is a great steel, but for my uses and where I live (on the edge of Lake Superior, and I spend a lot of time around the water and in marshy areas, not to mention that humidity in the summer usually hovers around 85%), it just isn't my preference. I've never been one to buy into any kind of marketing hype, and my edc is made out of 440C, which is not at the top of my list (a TSEK AXIS). I also own a Ryan Plan B (AUS6), which I am very happy with (doesn't stay sharp as long as some of my other knives, but I can also get it razor sharp again in no time flat). At the same time, I own a Fallkniven A1 and it is probably the best knife I've owned. It's tough, sharp as Hell, and does everything I need it to. Basically, once again, it's all subjective and a matter of personal preference. :)
 
Everybody forgets to rank the exotics in there as well (stellite, talonite)

I'm, of course, partial, as I just purchased a Camillus EDC Talonite off the board!

:p
 
J.Davey said:
Lifter,
The most important thing that I said was that it all comes down to opinion. The steels I put at the top of my list are the ones that I, personally, like the best. For instance, I agree that 1095 is a great steel, but for my uses and where I live (on the edge of Lake Superior, and I spend a lot of time around the water and in marshy areas, not to mention that humidity in the summer usually hovers around 85%), it just isn't my preference. I've never been one to buy into any kind of marketing hype, and my edc is made out of 440C, which is not at the top of my list (a TSEK AXIS). I also own a Ryan Plan B (AUS6), which I am very happy with (doesn't stay sharp as long as some of my other knives, but I can also get it razor sharp again in no time flat). At the same time, I own a Fallkniven A1 and it is probably the best knife I've owned. It's tough, sharp as Hell, and does everything I need it to. Basically, once again, it's all subjective and a matter of personal preference. :)
Click to expand...

No offense was intended. I was actually looking at the infi reference.
 
ranking steels is like ranking what colors are "best".
imo, its All pretty much a wash by time you consider all the areas that different steels excell in.
 
Of the steels in which I have experience, I would rate them as such:

1. S30V
2. VG-10
3. ATS-34
4. ATS-55
5. 440C
6. AUS-8
7. AUS-6

I consider carbon steels such as 1095 or 0170-6C equal to, if not better than any of the stainless steels listed. I didn't put them on the list because a lot of people don't like carbon steel because they are too lazy to take care of it.
 
My favorites [ meaning my needs are met and so I favor them ]:

VG-10: really likes to cut when sharp, easy to sharpen and holds a good edge. The Spyder Perrin Bowie is very nice in this steel as well as my Persian folder, both take a very sharp edge without a lot of fuss on the stones [ making them great cutters/slicers and easily retouched after using them ].

Carbon steels: 1084, 1095, 5160, a-2, d-2 in no particular order unless the size of the blade and it's intended purpose are taken into account.

Brownie
 
Relative to what? First you need to decide which attribute you want to rank -- toughness (at which Rc and how corrosion resistant?), corrosion resistance (at which Rc and toughness?), edge holding (you get the picture). Steel is a trade-off in attributes, no one steel does everything and there is a price ($$) to get the best. 3V may be one of the best steels out there, but that level of toughness isn't necessary in a small blade like a folder, besides it isn't stainless :rolleyes:

My favorite steels are (for no particular reason): O-1 (Randall), 154CM (my Benchmade 940 EDC takes a great edge), D-2 (Dozier and BM), S30V (Sebenza and BM). The Sebenza has a little less Rc than the Benchmade and seems to sharpen easier.

My next major purchase will probably be a wilderness knife and for that I will be looking for toughness and edge holding. The steel will probably be something other than those in my list of favorites.
 
Once upon a time I wanted my knives to be made from the latest and greatest steel. As time went by this changed, because I realized that some of my favorite knives were made from what was considered average or even below average steel. Unless I am purchasing a knife for a specific purpose, I don't worry much about what steel it is made from except that I prefer non-stainless carbon steel.

I have a question that is off topic. Does anyone know of an available steel that has similar characteristics to INFI? I would love to have a custom knife made from INFI, but it is a proprietary steel and is not available to be used by custom knifemakers.
 
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