Noob sharpening finish question

[walkamile]

Hi all,

Been lurking here a while and decided to sign up to ask a question and participate.

I have been working on getting sharp edges for a few months now and I believe I have a fair grasp on the basics. I can get an edge that easily shaves arm hair on my edges using a diamond stone progression up to an xxfine stone that is about 8-9 micron.

Aside from ease of use, personal preference, and time it takes to hone etc. is there any significant difference in the edge quality left by different materials? Say a Arkansas stone, a waterstone, a diamond pasted strop, and a lapping film on a glass plate of the same micron size were used on 4 different knives as a final finishing stage. Would there be any noticeable difference in the look or quality of the edge? Or would it be more of a different means to a similar end sort of thing?

Common sense would say it should all end up the same, but i've seen so many posts claiming one way is better than another I thought I would ask. I can understand there are differences in speed, ease, cost, and maintenance of different final hone set ups, I just don't have the experience to know or finances to get one of each to see for myself if any difference in edge quality.

Thanks all

 

[bucketstove]

Hi,

Hi all,

Been lurking here a while and decided to sign up to ask a question and participate.

I have been working on getting sharp edges for a few months now and I believe I have a fair grasp on the basics. I can get an edge that easily shaves arm hair on my edges using a diamond stone progression up to an xxfine stone that is about 8-9 micron.

Aside from ease of use, personal preference, and time it takes to hone etc. is there any significant difference in the edge quality left by different materials? Say a Arkansas stone, a waterstone, a diamond pasted strop, and a lapping film on a glass plate of the same micron size were used on 4 different knives as a final finishing stage. Would there be any noticeable difference in the look or quality of the edge? Or would it be more of a different means to a similar end sort of thing?

Common sense would say it should all end up the same, but i've seen so many posts claiming one way is better than another I thought I would ask. I can understand there are differences in speed, ease, cost, and maintenance of different final hone set ups, I just don't have the experience to know or finances to get one of each to see for myself if any difference in edge quality.

Thanks all

Hi,
What is your coarsest stone and how sharp can you get on that stone only?


Yes, its mostly a different means to a similar end sort of thing

unless edge is obviously damaged (reflective),
you cant really judge it by looks with optical microscope

so to see a difference in quality,
you have to cut and measure stuff
and maybe do statistical analysis

but if you can't get an equivalent level of sharpness using all the abrasives
then what you're seeing is a difference in skill/knowledge

But yeah, this is just the birds eye view

 

[bgentry]

is there any significant difference in the edge quality left by different materials? Say a Arkansas stone, a waterstone, a diamond pasted strop, and a lapping film on a glass plate of the same micron size were used on 4 different knives as a final finishing stage. Would there be any noticeable difference in the look or quality of the edge?

In a word, YES. Abrasives are more complex than they might seem at first. For instance, diamonds: They are very, very hard, and their shapes tend to be very pointy. Contrast this with aluminum oxide, for example, which isn't any where near as hard, and has generally more rounded shapes to the particles. So if you take a diamond plate at 9 microns and compare that to aluminum oxide at 9 microns, what you'll see is that they cut into the steel differently. The diamonds cut deeper and tend to hold their shapes more. While aluminum oxide won't cut as deep and (depending on the exact composition) may also break down into smaller particles as it is used and becomes "crushed".

Diamond hones tend to produce the most rough looking edge at any given particle size. This is interesting though because they provide an unusual polish with some coarseness to it.

Waterstones get very complex because they can have a mixture of particle sizes. Plus the particles can break down as you use them. Then of course there is the binder, which can be of all different strengths and compositions, which affects the rate at which fresh new particles are exposed on the stone surface.

In fact, some waterstones are known for producing a "Kasumi finish". Kasumi translates as "mist", which means that the bevel of the steel has a low sheen look to it, like it has lots of fine water droplets on it. YOu can produce a Kasumi finish at a range of actual edge finishes though, not just one. I *think* this is due to the fact that some waterstones break down in a way that leaves enough big particles to produce the Kasumi surface finish, while at the same time, producing a finer edge finish. But I'm just guessing. Waterstones are something I only know a little bit about.

So yes, different types of abrasives produce different finishes in look and performance, even at the same rated particle size. Abrasives are complex.

Brian.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Aside from ease of use, personal preference, and time it takes to hone etc. is there any significant difference in the edge quality left by different materials? Say a Arkansas stone, a waterstone, a diamond pasted strop, and a lapping film on a glass plate of the same micron size were used on 4 different knives as a final finishing stage. Would there be any noticeable difference in the look or quality of the edge? Or would it be more of a different means to a similar end sort of thing?

Thanks all

Hello, welcome on the forum!

There is always going to be a slight difference. As Brian mentioned, different abrasives are shaped differently, and the binder or backing of that abrasive will make a difference.

Comparing apples to apples though, lets say we took a known 3 micron honing compound and applied it to leather. Then applied it to a sheet of paper over a coarse combination stone, then applied it to a piece of red oak with a drop of oil to give it a tiny bit of mobility.

You'd see a shift in the scratch pattern from a bright finish with the leather to a slightly hazy one on the paper, to an even more hazy one off the hardwood. The edge likewise would have a shift in quality from more of a finer push slicer with the leather, to more of a catchy edge off the wood, the paper edge would be in between.

Overall there isn't going to be a huge difference but it will be there. So any change in media will cause some change in edge character.

Using your question, the Arkansas will leave a brighter finish than the diamond. Per Brian's response, the waterstone will vary depending if its a "soft" or a hard one, meaning the softer ones release grit and binder that produces a lapping action and leaves a frosted finish. Polishing grade stones don't normally induce this as much as ones in the mid and lower range. Harder stones tend to leave a brighter finish at the same grit value.

Lapping film will leave a very bright finish as the polyester backing allows some cushioning of the abrasive, and the bonding layer also has some give.

You can think of it as an intersection of how hard the binder or backer is, crossed with the amount of mobility the abrasive has. Between the two it will determine how much of the abrasive is sticking out of the surface, how much it will bite on the steel before it shifts under pressure and movement, these are the biggie factors, type and size of abrasive aside. These factors will also determine if the best way to finish with a given abrasive is a leading or trailing pass, and that can play a big role in edge character as well.

Martin

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Brian and Martin's answer should be stickied! :thumbup:

 

[walkamile]

Wow! Thanks for the info. I can only guess how much time you saved me in trial and error from this info. You guys really know your stuff.

To answer your question Buckstove.. I have a diamond stone thats a 140 grit. With just that stone i can get an edge that slices paper and shaves hair (with some effort). I then run through diamond my other 3 diamond stones that end in 1500 grit. This leaves me with a frosted/scratchy looking finish that will push cut paper. I then have a fleabay 3k/10k natural stone (questionable on what grit it really is) that takes off some of the scratches and any burr. It would probably shine up the blade and take all the scratches out but i havent spent more than 15 mins or so on this stone. Im guessing i could near a mirror polish but it would take an hour or two. This edge I can see hairs pop off my arm when the edge makes contact.

I am pretty happy with the cutting ability.

I am now trying to figure out the best route to replace the cheapo natural stone that will take the diamond stone scratches out quicker and leave me with a less frosted more mirrored looking edge. Why? Because I am trying to learn and improve my sharpening abilities. Not because I think it has to be mirror polished to be a good edge.

Again thanks for the great responses so far.











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