Noob with a question for the old timers...

I'mGatMan!

I'mGatMan!

Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
4,472
Hello all. I'm new to the forum, and knives in general. This is actually my first post, and I'm glad to be a member of a forum filled with so many knowledgeable people. I have been lurking for awhile and just joined up so I could be a more active member. I am posting because I need some assistance. Let me explain:

I got married a little over a year ago, and until then had never really thought much about self-defense, or my responsibility to protect myself or my loved ones. Getting married really opened my eyes to those responsibilities, and I've spent the last year learning and trying to train. As a result, I've gotten into guns and knives. I've also changed a lot. Lucky for me I have a great friend who has helped guide me, and when I began my odysey, he helped me get myself started. His firs advice, beyond getting my CWL, choosing a good gun or two, taking classes and getting educated on the laws was to get my tools togeter. He suggested, among other things, a good multi-tool, and a good knife.

My first purchase was a Leatherman Charge, which in my opinion is a great tool. Later on, I picked up an SOG Trident at a gun show. I knew nothing about knives then, and got lucky by picking a decent one. However, the Trident has developed some rust spots on the finish, and I'm looking to move on up.

Recently, I ordered myself a knife purely for defensive purposes, as well as one as a gift for my pops. I got him a Kershaw JYD (after reading favorable reviews here), and after long thought, decided on a CRKT Crawford N.E.C.K.. For myself. I've yet to receive those knives, but I am now looking for something to replace my folder. And herein lies the rub.

I know my Trident is still a good knife, but I am unhappy with the rust. I have done a LOT of reading and have narrowed my options down to two: either a Busse Game Warden or an Emerson CQC.

I know...they are different animals. One is a handmade fixed blade, and the other, a tactical folder. Here's my problem, though. They are both relatively pricey (for my budget) and while I would love to own them both--the Busse for inverted under-the-arm carry via a MercHarness, the other, an Emerson CQC-8 for my pocket--but I won't buy them both now. So I have come here to seek advice from those with more experience than I.

Here are my needs/desires: I want a quality knife with a very good warranty. I'm willing to spend the money, because I believe when you buy well, even if you spend more, you end up saving in the long run.

I cannot carry all the time because of my work, but either knife would be with me the res of the time.

I do not do lots of heavy cutting, but there is some around-the-house cutting from time-to-time. I need a knife which is versatile, and yet I want it to be something very good for self-defense.

I do already have an under-the-shoulder rig coming (the crawford) and I do have my Trident. I technically don't NEED anything else, but who does? The question is: if you were to replace either of those purpose-driven knives, which would be the best bet? Should I get the CQC-8, and keep the Crawford for under-the-arm, or should I get the Busse, a sheath, and a MercHarness, return the Crawford, and stick with the Trident?

Understanding that knives are tools, I know I already have what I need, but like all of you, I want more, better options. I love good design, and am impressed with both. Ideally, I would buy them both and have them be my edc blade package along with my customized G19 and Surefire E2D, however that isn't in the bankbook right now. So what are your suggestions? And if you suggest the CQC-8, would u go with a plain blade, or the combo edge?

I appreciate any of you who take the time to read my essay here, and would be glad to read your suggestions. Thanks in advance.

Jason
 
Find a sensei to teach you how to fight with a knife, then find out what he recommends.

Having a knife as a weapon without obtaining training in its use is setting oneself up for disaster. Do not carry a knife with the intent of using it as a weapon without first training in its use.
 
Thank you. That is certainly the next step. I guess I should have foreseen that response.
 
Nearly ALL knives will rust- it is a matter of the steel. If you are unhappy with the knife because it rusted then you have basically 2 choices. 1)Get a truly stain free knife in H1, Titanium, Boye Dendritic Cobalt..(usually soft steel and pricier and fewer choices of blades). 2) Take better care of your steel (not a jab at you just honest advice). Wipe the blade down with clean water often and dry immediately, use marine Tuf Cloth, keep the blade away from sweaty skin and other salty environments. You need to tell us how you treated your blade that allowed it to rust. Remember even stainless steel is only stain less, hence the name.

I would go with a folder after training with a good self defense instructor or two. Pick an instructor that teaches empty hand techniques as well as knife techniques (a couple of different trainers will expose you to different theories that will work better/worse for you and you will be able to better define what techniques are suited for you). Are you expecting to carry the under arm knife exposed? Even if your knife is quick access you may not have time in an actual attack to draw the knife. You need to have options that allow you the time to access the knife; and some instances of self defense do not warrant a weapon being pulled. Remember that you have a responsibility to your family to stay out of jail as well.

Back to your question. A folding knife is easier to conceal, easier to carry and gets a better reaction from non-knife people. A plain edge knife is more universally seen as a using knife as opposed to a weapon. It is also easier to sharpen (you should learn how-Spyderco Sharpmaker is your friend right now)and usually seen as more versatile
as the serrations can get in the way of efficient slicing.

The last bit of wisdom(ha ha) that I can give you is to actually use the knife as a tool. That way the knifes features are retained in muscle memory, your draws will be naturally cleaner and faster as a result of you not having to think about what you are doing as much. As well you will learn the dynamics of cutting better. There is more to cutting than just applying blade to material- this is why I can cleanly cut things that coworkers are struggling with using the same blade as I know how to best use the edge. Most importantly it will allow you to appreciate having a knife around and then- "You will truly become one of us- HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA"

I hope I made some sense in that rambling mess.
Welcome aboard!!
 
Kris,

Thanks for all the advice. I neglected my Trident a bit by not really wiping it down as often as I should have. Hell, I'm the same with guns, which is why I sold my Kimber and bought two Glocks. So you're saying you would choose a CQC-8 over the Busse, and that plain edge would be a better option in your opinion. Any other advice I can use?
 
I don`t know where you live, but carring a fixed blade concealed can get you into a lot of trouble in some places, in California (my home) its a felony. The knife I carry, when I walk my dog at nite, is my Cudda maxx.
 
You should carry a pistol. If you absolutely have to carry a knife for self defense, get a double-edged, non-serrated, fixed blade....when you really need to count on them, the lock will fail on a folder. Get a blade between 6-7" in length. If it's for EDC, don't worry about it rusting; just keep a coat of Break Free, or even, a thin coat of petroleum jelly on it.
Oh....before I forget...TRAIN YOUR ASS OFF.
 
My first question: where do you live that you NEED to be that concerned with defense and your personal safety??? It would seem to me that if where you live is that dangerous, you should pack your family up & head for safer, greener pastures. Take a word of advice from an old vet who has seen combat & my share of "stuff", self defense is NOT like the movies!! UNLESS YOU ARE ****WELL**** TRAINED, ALL YOU WILL SUCCEED IN DOING IS GETTING YOURSELF HURT, KILLED, OR IN JAIL!! All states have very specific, & different laws about self defense, most of which will ONLY allow you to protect yourself with deadly force if your life is in IMMANENT danger, and you'd better be able to prove it. Give some serious thought to what you are doing here.
As to the rust on your knife, get a product called "Triflon", it's a spray lube with teflon. Spray the blade down, let it soak awhile, and wipe down. Should remove the rust, and will protect the blade for quite awhile.
 
Sorry...double posted by mistake. Refer to the post below. And btw...wife and I ARE looking to move.
 
Thanks for the advice, people. I'll get myself some of that Triflon as soon as I can find it.

As for where I live, I'm in Miami, where things are getting a bit testy. More and more recently I've heard this city refered to as the Wild West. We've had 8 cops assaulted in the past 4 months in SoFla...3 of them died, and one of the killers is still on the lam. I do carry a 19 when I'm not at work, and am definitely training when I can.

I guess I sounded a bit overzealous in my OP. Truth is that I just want to have the best tools--in case shtf--that I can afford to have. Here in FL, if you have a CWL, you can carry pretty much any knife you can conceal, as well as any handgun that isn't full auto. I have trained in handguns and am looking to begin training with edged weapons not because I am a yahoo, but because I feel, like many of us here do, that when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away. I would rather have as many tools at my disposal--knowing that SD situations are never predictable--as I can. Thus, for the most part, my edc knife ('cept for the underarm knife) will be very utilitarian. However, I DO want to know that if I need it, I can indeed count on it to work in an SD situation.

I know anything can become a weapon, and that the mind is the most powerful weapon, but I am choosing to augment my mind's potential as a weapon with other, more conventional fare.

On that note, the Busse would be a great acquisition, but it wouldn't be more than an underarm knife for much of the time because I would already have a Glock on my strong side, and a mag on my weak side. That said, maybe the CQC-8 is the way to go...

I appreciate all your input. Thank you

Jason
 
It's definitely all about the training. Your training and education on SD will determine what you should be using. But if you're just looking for a suggestion, I love the look of the Zero Tolerance Military Boot Knife for pure SD.
 
You've already received much good advice (and more importantly, seem to be listening) so the only thing I am going to add is that I think investing in a Busse is a good idea, but for what you want to use it for I would suggest an Active Duty or, probably even better, a Meaner Street (slightly longer). The Game Warden has more belly and less point than I would be looking for in a defensive blade.

Your timing couldn't be better- for the last few years you couldn't find an AD or a Meaner for sale and if you did, they were very pricey. Luckily for you, there has recently been a limited re-issue and there are quite a few for sale on the exchange at some very low (for a Busse) prices. I would suggest acting quickly- things change!
 
Troop said:
You should carry a pistol. If you absolutely have to carry a knife for self defense, get a double-edged, non-serrated, fixed blade....when you really need to count on them, the lock will fail on a folder. Get a blade between 6-7" in length. If it's for EDC, don't worry about it rusting; just keep a coat of Break Free, or even, a thin coat of petroleum jelly on it.
Oh....before I forget...TRAIN YOUR ASS OFF.
Click to expand...


or a fixed blade thats legal in your neck of the woods. a 7" double dged FB aint gonna be legal a lot of places, now if a pistol is illegal/unavailable, i suppose i wouldnt worry about legalities in certain circumstances, i wouldnt neccesarily want a double edge knife though.

lotsa folders have great locks these days, the axis, compression, or frame lock arent likely to let ya down, and a well fitted liner lock aint bad either.

as far as EKI goes i would get a CQC12 over a '8, its got a better grind and a better lock, albeit at a higher price, if thats an issue get a CQC13, again a better almost "v" grind. of course CQC8's arent bad either, but in all honesty a '12 is worth every extra penny imho.
 
oldfogey said:
My first question: where do you live that you NEED to be that concerned with defense and your personal safety??? It would seem to me that if where you live is that dangerous, you should pack your family up & head for safer, greener pastures. Take a word of advice from an old vet who has seen combat & my share of "stuff", self defense is NOT like the movies!! UNLESS YOU ARE ****WELL**** TRAINED, ALL YOU WILL SUCCEED IN DOING IS GETTING YOURSELF HURT, KILLED, OR IN JAIL!! All states have very specific, & different laws about self defense, most of which will ONLY allow you to protect yourself with deadly force if your life is in IMMANENT danger, and you'd better be able to prove it. Give some serious thought to what you are doing here.
As to the rust on your knife, get a product called "Triflon", it's a spray lube with teflon. Spray the blade down, let it soak awhile, and wipe down. Should remove the rust, and will protect the blade for quite awhile.
Click to expand...

i dont know many areas in the US i would be carefree about my and my families safety FWIW.
 
As many folks have said...... train hard with a good teacher....

The problem with a lot of martial arts training is that they are either based on a empty form from a bygone age....... (that does not adapt well to the modern world)

or the training does not trigger enough adrenaline to activate state dependent memory.

What this means is, a guy can be a black belt in his dojo, do really well in competition and then when he's confronted by a mugger he freezes and loses his art.

This is because the adrenaline dump of a real life or death scenario

a) Cuts out fine motor control (opening that folder can become a real bitch when that happens)

b) Paralyses the part of the brain that remembers how to do all those fancy locks and strikes.

Martial arts traditionally overcame this problem by either:

a) brutal training which is so close to life or death that you get used to dealing with the adrenaline dump and the adrenalised state becomes a trigger for your art..... (you dont often get that in the west outside of the military or the more hard core end of the market)

For these type of arts systems such as: Krav Maga, Boxing, Muay Thai, JKD, Kali...... can be good (but make sure you get that realistic element)

or b) learning to relax within the life or death situation, as with Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Hsing-I, Systema etc. (this is actually very difficult and may take many years)

Theres some good advice to be had on real self defence scenarios in the books

Real Fighting by Peyton Quinn

and

A Bouncers Guide to Bar Room Brawling again by Peyton Quinn

this guy speaks a lot of sense compared to the majority of BS you get in the martial arts world.

You can do a course with him here:

http://www.rmcat.com/index.html?fresh=1

Mark Animal Mcyoung is another writer who seems to know where its at.

The knife itself ,as long as it is a reasonable length, has sound grip and is as sharp as hell, does not matter nearly as much as the previous comments.

A friend of mine took out an armed mugger with a biro...... the training matters more.......

Some think serrated blades offer the advantage that the cut hurts a hell of a lot more initially and sends your assailant in to shock........ some say they are more likely to snag on clothes.

Its possible that having a very intimidatng looking blade will make your attacker think twice before coming at you...... despite my comments on folders,would you go for someone who pops that Spyderco Civilian open or that CS Vaquero Grande.... ?

Others say that thats more likely to make them scared and angry and thus do you more damage........

Merry Xmas

:D
 
Man, I was hoping to get some decent insight about my options, but this information is great. Kiri, I will cerainly look into the arts/books you suggested. Thanks. As for the Busse knives, I really don't see myself going with something longer than 8" oal. I was also looking at the Rat RC3, but I have a feeling most here would say to go with Busse over Rat. Any thoughts?

J
 
Sifu,

I don't know much about locks/grinds yet, but I did look on Emerson's website and all three of those knives have a "conventional v grind." Can you tell me what to look for as far as what makes one grind better than another?
 
There are a lot of guys on here that know a hell of a lot more about edge grinds and sharpening than I do.....

However my humble opinion.

Buy a spiderco sharpmaker and put a good razor edge on whichever knife you decide on.

You could really get in to sharpening and start agonising over different degrees and back bevels etc etc...... But in my opinion the sharpmaker has been able to put a good razr edge on any of my 'User' knives. (easy to do to!)

If you want to get really in to it then a Edgepro would be the more expensive option that gives you more flexability on what edge you put on.

You can then look in to stropping with leather, jewelers paste etc etc....

Or even go freestyle and get in to Japanese water stones.... :D

As to what edge. Generally a very fine razor edge would be good for a SD knife but not so good for utility as it will blunt quickly if you are cutting cardboard or rope etc in day to day life..... Of course the true enthusiast will never be far away from some form of sharpening tool so you can always touch up that edge.....

My opinion.

Serrated edge........ Pros: rips, hurts! leaves nasty gaping wound. Good for rope and cord... can carry on sawing even when blunted during prolonged field use. Cons: May snag. Difficult to resharpen.

Convex grind. Pros: Can be very scary sharp! Edge will last longer than any other in use. Cons: Quite difficult to resharpen! (but worth learning how)

Straight grind: Pros: Can be good and sharp. Easy to resharpen. Cons: Doesn't hold a edge as well as convex.

Concave grind: As above really but I think slightly easier to screw up your angles and get a wire edge.

Chisel grind: Pros: Very easy to resharpen. Good as a flesh cutter. Can be scary sharp. (Sushi chefs love it!) some Japanese fighting knives actually have chisel grind. Not so good for utilitarian use as the edge is slightly out of line with total width of steel and so could blunt easier for heavyer tasks.

As important as grind is the angle......

Generally you might use a 15-17 degree angle on a utility knife but might go a bit finer on a SD knife......

But then you might just be splitting hairs.......... :p
 
Okay...that was a LOT of info. I'll hafta read that over and over to digest it. I'm pretty sure I've decided on the waved cqc-8 in bt with a combo edge as my CRKT Triumph has a plain edge. I feel like having the combo edge on my pocket edc gives me the most versatility. I'm gonna go call NewGraham. Thanks, people.

J
 
As far as a folder is concerned you may want to check out a Benchmade 610 Rukus. This knife has the Axis lock, a 4.25"length X .150"thick drop point blade that has a flat grind. I DO NOT know anything about the art of defending myself with a knife and if it came to that I think I would just run like hell to get away from the situation and put that adrenaline to use! But I would think that a longer bladed knife, up to a point of course, would have the advantage over the shorter blade, and the simple drop point of the Rukus is a great utility blade to boot. This is a large, sturdy, heavy duty knife and with some practice you can open and close with a simple wrist flick, although I don't think I would be comfortable with the blade loose enough to do that, but you may. At any rate it is worth looking at as an option. Good luck with whatever you decide on!:thumbup:
 
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