Normalizing/Annealing

G

grizzled gizzard

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Aug 31, 2010
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I am using 52100, and the annealing looks like a huge pita. Do I really need to anneal it, or can I grind it after it's normalized?

How many times would I need to normalize it? Would a cryogenic normalization help?

Thanks a bunch!
 
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Your questions are really hard to answer as worded, tempering has nothing whatsoever to do with annealing or normalizing, neither does cryo. Tempering and cryo are both processes done after the hardening cycle and serve no purpose if done before this.
Some steels you can work when normalized, other will not be friendly to your tooling in this state and should be annealed. I have not worked with 52100 so I won't talk out my butt about it.
Normalizing is commonly done 3 times. Mill run carbon steel that is annealed or has been forged should be normalized prior to the hardening cycle.
 
Terribly sorry, I misspoke, and hopefully corrected it so that it is now a viable question. Sorry, I'm a noob... or maybe just a boob. :D

Thank you very much for your responce, Justin.
 
52100 can and will harden when normalized. In order to anneal it I give my blades a 2 hour soak at 988 f. three times over 72 hours. After these annealing cycles you can drill it with a regular drill bit easily.
 
Thank you Mr. Fowler, that explains a lot of what I've been experiencing. It seems more cost effective to use carbide bits than to anneal, Unless it's better to harden from an annealed state than a normalized state....or should one normalize then anneal?

Sorry for my ignorance, but I see normalizing as the process of removing the internal stress in the blade so that it doesn't warp (as much) during hardening and tempering. Would annealing remove the internal stresses as well? AFAIK, cryo treatment also removes internal stresses too, and that is why I asked whether a guy could use a cryo treatment as part of the normalizing process.
 
Annealing is done to soften, normalizing is done to refinie the grain size. Both cycles will remove internal stresses but that is not usually the express reason for doing them. There is sometimes a specific and seperate cycle for stress relief depending on alloy, this is usually done below the critical temp.
 
I forge, then give the blade three post forging quenches in room temp. oil, from above critical for 35 seconds each quench, then flash normalize twice, then a full normalizing cycle to room temp., then anneal.
With this process we have never had a blade warp.

I don't know about cost effective, our goal is to make the most dependable blade possible.
 
Thank you again , Justin, I appreciate your input very much.

Mr.Fowler, I just visited your website, and read every word. I too am only interested in making the best knife I can possibly make. I didn't mean to sound as though I am trying to take the easy way out. From my own studying, I figured two things; I want to make knives of 52100, and it ain't gonna be easy. I know it is within my capability. I did not know that 52100 is your choice as well.

Instead of asking any more silly questions, I will study the information provided on your site.

Thank you very much.
 
Grizz: You are most welcome, the information we share is backed by documentation and testing that takes place in one of the most sophisticated privately owned laboratories in the nation, three metallurgists have participated in the development of what we believe to be the facts at this time. For me it has been a 50 year quest, Rex our metallurgist joined the team in 1990 and we continue to learn.

We are very pleased to know that you are interested and will do all we can to assist you in our quest.

If you are able to join us in our chat room, we will be there tonight from 7:00 pm Mountain Standard time until you run out of topics to discuss. We are there every Tuesday night. Check the forum that is identified below my signature.
 
FWIW

I attempt to do some sort or annealing to hot-rolled, unannealed 1084 by putting it on the largest burner on my stove (electric) while turned on high. It seems to help somewhat but the steel is definitely not annealed. However, using cutting fluid/oil I am usually able to drill through it. I have to use a carbide edged blade in my high tension hacksaw to cut it though.

- Paul Meske
 
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