Norton India: Coarse or coarse / fine combination stone?

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Papilio

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Sep 6, 2019
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I sold most of my Bench Stones. Bought a Fallkniven DC521 (the large stone) and think about a Spyderco UF.
Fallkniven has a fine diamond side (25µ, ~ 600 JIS and since this year the dark ceramic is given as 15µ).
Nonetheless I see the need of a coarser stone. I have read a lot of good things about Norton India stones. What do you think should I buy? A coarse India? Or a coarse / fine combination stone?
A vendor who has those stones available rates them different (fine side 1.000 JIS) than it is done here (360 to 400).
Thanks!
 
What steel(s) are you planning to sharpen with the India?

If the steels are compatible with an India, I'd suggest the combination stone (Coarse/Fine). And for most work of mine personally, I use the Fine side a LOT more than I do the Coarse side. For simple carbon and low-alloy stainless, like 1095, CV, 420HC, 440A, etc., even the Fine side of the India can do a good job setting bevels and making repairs to the edge. I use the Fine side of my IB8 (8" x 2" bench stone) for such work on my EDC traditional pocketknives and also for the kitchen knives I use, up to 8" - 10" blade length. For bigger blades with thicker steel behind the edge, the Coarse side of the India would be more appropriate for heavy thinning jobs. But if the edge doesn't need a lot of thinning, even bigger blades can be handled pretty easily on the Fine side of the India combination stone.

If you're sharpening high-wear steels with more carbide content - especially vanadium carbide - a coarser diamond (325 or lower) or a coarse stone in SiC (like Norton's Crystolon) would do better for that work, than would the India (in aluminum oxide). And the SiC stone would also be more assertive with steels like 440C or D2, both of which have significant, large chromium carbide content that makes working them a little slower on an aluminum oxide stone like the India. Not that it couldn't do the job - but the SiC stone would do it faster and more cleanly (less burring issues) with less chance for glazing the stone.

The 360-400 rating is about right for the India 'Fine' grit, BTW - maybe even down to ~320 or so, when it's brand new. After that, it breaks in to something a little finer, approaching 400 or so. And that's by the ANSI standard, not JIS. India stones aren't rated by the JIS scale.
 
KKF has a discussion going on these stones. "The Greatest Sharpening Stone in the World"

Norton lists Fine India as 35 micron which corresponds to #360 JIS R 6001, and is between 280 and 320 ANSI B74.10.

As a low-breakdown stone the surface condition will be instrumental in cutting performance; a stone that is ground smooth will have no aggression.

 
Mostly 440A, X50CrMoV15 (1.4116 / AISI 420MoV).
I had a SiC stone. But that stone was very thirsty and became quite smooth quickly.
I plan to use the Fallkniven as the stone that does the main work, especially the ceramic side. Fine India to fine diamond...or just a coarse stone. I am not 100% sure about that.
A good diamond stone would be nice. But more pricey.
Thanks so far.
 
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Papilio said:
Mostly 440A, X50CrMoV15 (1.4116 / AISI 420MoV).
I had a SiC stone. But that stone was very thirsty and became quite smooth quickly.
I plan to use the Fallkniven as the stone that does the main work, especially the ceramic side. Fine India to fine diamond...or just a coarse stone. I am not 100% sure about that.
A good diamond stone would be nice. But more pricey.
Thanks so far.
Click to expand...
Norton's 'Crystolon' SiC stone is a filled stone, meaning it's pre-filled with a grease/oil material that makes it much less thirsty than other, less expensive SiC stones, which usually aren't pre-filled with grease or anything else. Sounds like your other SiC stone might've gotten glazed. Depending on what was used for lubrication (oil/water?), that might've been a factor, due either to glazing or heavy loading with swarf. Or maybe just a quality issue with that particular stone. SiC oilstones are designed to work best at some pressure, which dislodges worn grit and exposes fresh grit, to keep them cutting well.

The 25-micron Fallkniven diamond would be equivalent to DMT's Fine (600) hones, also rated at 25 micron. By comparison to the Fine India at 360-400, the 600 diamond might leave a somewhat coarser scratch pattern and toothier edge, in spite of it's 'fine' rating at 600. That's just due to comparing diamond vs aluminum oxide - diamond will always cut more deeply for its rated grit.

For the steels you're mentioning, the Coarse side of the Norton India combo stone should work pretty well for the heavy work, and the Fine side is very good for subsequent maintenance sharpening. Or, if you prefer, you could just buy the straight Coarse India, for what you're wanting to do.
 
I had two SiC stones. Both weren't Norton. I used one dry. Worked slow, especially on the coarse side. The fine side was ok. I used more pressure than I do on sintered ceramics.
Soaked the other one in Paraffin oil (Paraffinum Liquidum) because it wanted to try if I could get a splash and go stone. Didn't work. Loading quickly with swarf and did not clean well. Tried to degrease it. Still greasy fingers. Very smooth, not even near 180 grit. Would need SiC powder, but that stone is a loss. Not worth neither the effort nor the money.

If get it right: The coarse India is good for heavy work. I need that stone. The Fine India would leave (most likely) a finer edge / scratch pattern than the Fallkniven diamond. What about the progression from a Fine India to the Fallkniven Ceramic? Wise? Or are they too close together? In other words: Is there a benefit if I also have the Fine India? Or do I achieve the same result if I don't have the "intermediate" Fine India?
 
Papilio said:
I had two SiC stones. Both weren't Norton. I used one dry. Worked slow, especially on the coarse side. The fine side was ok. I used more pressure than I do on sintered ceramics.
Soaked the other one in Paraffin oil (Paraffinum Liquidum) because it wanted to try if I could get a splash and go stone. Didn't work. Loading quickly with swarf and did not clean well. Tried to degrease it. Still greasy fingers. Very smooth, not even near 180 grit. Would need SiC powder, but that stone is a loss. Not worth neither the effort nor the money.

If get it right: The coarse India is good for heavy work. I need that stone. The Fine India would leave (most likely) a finer edge / scratch pattern than the Fallkniven diamond. What about the progression from a Fine India to the Fallkniven Ceramic? Wise? Or are they too close together? In other words: Is there a benefit if I also have the Fine India? Or do I achieve the same result if I don't have the "intermediate" Fine India?
Click to expand...
( Regarding the progression from the Fine India to a medium ceramic, and deciding if it's worthwhile... )

I've liked using Spyderco's medium ceramic to follow the Fine India, on steels very similar to those you've mentioned (420HC equivalents, more or less, and also on simple carbon steels like 1095 or CV). I usually set the edges first on the Fine India, then use the medium ceramic later for touch-up sharpening - I use the Sharpmaker's medium rods for that. I feel this progression is a very good fit for steels of this type. I haven't tried the same with a Fallkniven ceramic, although I do have a DC4 and have since refinished the ceramic side to something much finer than the Spyderco medium.
 
Obsessed with edges is giving you good advice. I rarely use a coarse silicon carbide or coarse aluminum oxide stone. The last time I did this was to sharpen the edge of a new cutter mattock with an axe puck. A medium ceramic, like the Spyderco, is really a fine stone. Their fine ceramic is really very fine. If you get the combo India stone, be sure to use a light honing oil on it, and not something like 3 in 1 oil. Heavier oils will much up the stone.
The terms fine, medium, extra fine are all used in variable ways. I find a “fine” diamond stone to be pretty coarse, and mainly use a “fine” DMT on a particularly hard to sharpen old Gerber kitchen knife. The combination India stone will do well for a reasonable purchase price.
 
I found an old, small kitchen knife made in Solingen that was hidden deep in the drawer. This knife has seen some abuse, the edge looked awful and was dull. Traces of a pull-through sharpener over years. The imprint on the knife (I can't tell a brand) says "West Germany". Thus this knife was made when Germany was divided in West and East Germany (Federal Republic of Germany and German Democratic Republic). So we are talking about more than 3 decades.

So I thought this little knife would be a good choice for a first sharpening session with my new Norton India. I regret that I bought this stone...but now. Worked great. I would not say that the edge looks like it was sharpened by a pro. But the knife is sharp. That is what matters. It could shave hairs effortless.
If the India stone keeps its cutting performance it will serve me well. I am very pleased.
 
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