Norton Oil Stones

[linuxology]

Can someone provide any feedback on comparing a norton oil stone characteristics versus a japanese water stone characteristics? I understand Norton Oil stones are substantailly cheaper. Is it kind of a bang for buck item?

 

[DeadboxHero]

You can find king waterstones cheaper then Norton oilstones.

 

[knifeandgun]

I have only used nortons once and they were good, but I really like water stones
And ya you can find good king combo waterstones for pretty solid prices

 

[bgentry]

Some brief descriptions of each:

Norton oil stones:
Very hard. Difficult to gouge. Crystolon release grit as grinding happens, but rather slowly. India release essentially no grit. India won't need flattening for a very very long time. Crystolon needs periodic flattening. Abrasiveness ranges from very coarse through around "medium". Tops out at about 320 grit for fine India. Can be used with water, or oil, or dry. Oil is most recommended.

Japanese water stones: Range from very soft to hard like ceramic. Most are somewhere in the middle which means you can gouge most of these if you're not careful. Most require soaking in water, though some are "splash and go". All release grit in some way. The softer stones release more grit. The softer the stone, the more it will need to be flattened. Most people recommend flattening these every time you use them. Because of the grit release, burr formation tends to be less than on a harder stone. Softer stones promote less burr formation. Grit ranges from extremely coarse to ultra fine (as high as 30,000 grit, or roughly 0.5 to 1.0 micron (from memory)).

Brian.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Can someone provide any feedback on comparing a norton oil stone characteristics versus a japanese water stone characteristics? I understand Norton Oil stones are substantailly cheaper. Is it kind of a bang for buck item?

Its more of an application difference. The combination stone is sort of a basic 'fix and make an entry level edge' on pretty much any tool and steel. Used with oil they are fast and effective though the edge is not terribly refined. With familiarity you can eke out a great performing edge though, perfect for 80% of most edged tool needs.

The mud and oil from a silicon carbide (Crystalon) can be smeared on a sheet of regular paper, wrapped around the same stone to use for a strop, and you have a great single item sharpening solution. The India makes a somewhat finer edge but is a bit slower and more prone to loading/glazing if not used with oil or other lubricant. It sheds a lot less abrasive, so the residue that forms on it from sharpening is not as effective for an improvised strop.

They are most commonly used for fixing and resetting bevels prior to transitioning to a finer stone, so are good to have around the shop no matter.

A 1k waterstone would pick up where the fine side of the Norton leaves off in terms of edge finish. Not all waterstones can tackle all steels - ones like the Kings can have considerable difficulty on high carbide stainless, tho work great on carbon steels and low alloy stainless.

Waterstones will have a longer learning curve than most combination stones but also allow for a greater range of edge finish. Some of the waterstones out there are a real delight to work on, but I love my Crystalon stone too.

 

[bucketstove]

Hi,
The price depends on what you're buying and where, for example on amazon, the norton JB8 Combination Crystolon@ 100/280 grit and King IBK-80 250/1000 grit, are each about $20

on the other hand, the norton economy line , the 6in stones commonly sold at your local home depot, are cheaper (~$7), but they're not consistent, which is not a big deal , just requires small amount of knowledge, they are a step up from $1 coarse stone

An informative review and discussion at Norton Economy Crystolon fine/coarse sharpening stone with lots of food for thought ( cutting speed / cutting fluids / pressure / maintenance / durability / steel suitability )

Also very informative (like the entire Sharpening playlist) Sharpening : slurries, oil stones and waterstones and plateau sharpening - CliffStamp

But it might be too much information too soon esp if you're not making 1000 slices at a time like this Normark EKA 12C27 : optimal edge geometry for slicing hardwoods (norton economy fine edge) - CliffStamp

 

[jc57]

Just as an FYI, Home Depot no longer carries the Norton Economy 6x2 Stone nor the 4.5oz Norton Honing oil. Not sure why.

 

[Bob6794]

No experience with waterstones sadly but the Norton Crystolon and India stones would make great stones to begin with if you are planning on building up a sharpening setup or expanding on latter. Especially the coarse Crystolon as it will chew through metal relatively quick to do some repair work and resetting bevels. I own the norton economy india and crystolon, and the IM100 tri-stone (crystolon coarse/fine, fine india). Crystolon (or silicon carbide) will work on most steels and to some extent same with India (aluminum oxide) untill you reach the extremely wear resistant metals than it just may prove too be too slow. Waterstones on the other hand can have various characteristics, may wear at different levels, not work well with certain steels, may require being soaked first or just a spash of water, etc. If your not certain of what you want it's good to ask questions when it comes to waterstones.

They both have their pros and cons, if you can try examples of both and use what you feel comfortable with.

 

[bucketstove]

Just as an FYI, Home Depot no longer carries the Norton Economy 6x2 Stone nor the 4.5oz Norton Honing oil. Not sure why.

I too have noticed that on their website, which does seem to reflect realistically what they actually carry in store,... but I haven't been in a store to check, have you?

They still list a tile rubbing block, basically like a norton economy only coarser, 60/80 grit ( 200-270 micron)... too coarse for sharpening/edge, but ought to work well reprofiling/regrinding/thinning behind the edge

 

[jc57]

Haven't checked the stores recently. I bought two of the Economy stones and 2 cans of honing oil at my local store last year.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I too have noticed that on their website, which does seem to reflect realistically what they actually carry in store,... but I haven't been in a store to check, have you?

They still list a tile rubbing block, basically like a norton economy only coarser, 60/80 grit ( 200-270 micron)... too coarse for sharpening/edge, but ought to work well reprofiling/regrinding/thinning behind the edge

Those tile rubbing stones aren't very good, and have little or no similarity to the Norton Economy stone in functional terms. In spite of the rated 'grit', which is visibly very large and irregular, they're not nearly as aggressive on steel as the SiC Norton Economy. What aggressiveness they start with goes away pretty fast too, likely by glazing of the grit (it's an aluminum oxide stone). This is based on my impression of the one I picked up within the last couple years or so.

If, for some reason, one can't find the Norton Economy SiC stone anymore at Home Depot, take a look at the SiC stones offered at ACE Hardware. Functionally, I can't see any difference in performance between them and the Norton Economy stones. They're both great buys for the money, at roughly the same price point. ACE also offers them in at least four different sizes as well (3" pocket stone in 'Fine' grit, 4" double-sided, 6" x 2" double-sided, and an 8" x 2" double-sided version). ACE also has a 6" x 2" double-sided stone in aluminum oxide (lighter grey stone). It's OK for an AlOx stone, and it's grit seems more uniformly graded than the tile rubbing stones and better-suited for sharpening tasks; but I still like the SiC stones better, as they're cleaner cutting, less prone to burring, and have a lesser tendency to load up or glaze like an AlOx stone.


David

 

[bucketstove]

Those tile rubbing stones aren't very good, and have little or no similarity to the Norton Economy stone in functional terms. In spite of the rated 'grit', which is visibly very large and irregular, they're not nearly as aggressive on steel as the SiC Norton Economy. What aggressiveness they start with goes away pretty fast too, likely by glazing of the grit (it's an aluminum oxide stone). This is based on my impression of the one I picked up within the last couple years or so.

If, for some reason, one can't find the Norton Economy SiC stone anymore at Home Depot, take a look at the SiC stones offered at ACE Hardware. Functionally, I can't see any difference in performance between them and the Norton Economy stones. They're both great buys for the money, at roughly the same price point. ACE also offers them in at least four different sizes as well (3" pocket stone in 'Fine' grit, 4" double-sided, 6" x 2" double-sided, and an 8" x 2" double-sided version). ACE also has a 6" x 2" double-sided stone in aluminum oxide (lighter grey stone). It's OK for an AlOx stone, and it's grit seems more uniformly graded than the tile rubbing stones and better-suited for sharpening tasks; but I still like the SiC stones better, as they're cleaner cutting, less prone to burring, and have a lesser tendency to load up or glaze like an AlOx stone.


David

Hi, thanks for the info.
Are you sure ACE stones are SiC/crystolon, what are the grits?
The ACE website says all the stones are aluminum oxide , and one review says grit is 60/80...
its one reason I got a norton a year ago

FWIW, OSH hardware lists a norton garden/scythe stone which should be crystolon...

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Hi, thanks for the info.
Are you sure ACE stones are SiC/crystolon, what are the grits?
The ACE website says all the stones are aluminum oxide , and one review says grit is 60/80...
its one reason I got a norton a year ago

FWIW, OSH hardware lists a norton garden/scythe stone which should be crystolon...

ACE's website hasn't very well reflected what I've found in the store locally. They do have at least one aluminum oxide stone (6" x 2" stone mentioned earlier); the rest of the stones I mentioned I'm sure are SiC (I have the ACE stones in the 3", 4" and 8" sizes, and have seen the obviously-darker SiC 6" x 2" stone in their store). I had communicated via email with Norton/St. Gobain a while back about their Economy stone (they also had originally shown it as aluminum oxide in their online catalogs), and after a lot of questions & checking, they'd admitted it had been changed to SiC in 2008. They also assured me the SiC stones are distinctly blacker in color, as compared to the lighter grey of similarly-priced AlOx stones (difference in catalog pics from Norton makes that obvious; that is what I'd contacted them about, wanting to clarify the difference). See catalog pic from Norton below, for color differences; the grey 87933 is Norton's older aluminum oxide 'Economy' stone, and the darker 87935 stone pictured is in their SiC grit (Crystolon):

After all of that, I'd looked into the ACE stones and could see they were functionally identical as compared to Norton's SiC Economy stone, and to apparent grit and color as well. I'd also noticed a while after, that even Sears started carrying a 6" stone that looked identical to Norton's Economy SiC stone (saw that in-store as well, though looking at their web site still seemed to show a more typically 'grey' aluminum oxide stone.)

The differences in how they cut steel are more obvious, especially being that I have ACE's grey AlOx stone to compare to; the SiC stones all retain a consistent aggressiveness, whereas the AlOx stone seems to lose some aggression pretty early (compares identically to every other AlOx stone I've ever tried). There are also noticeable differences in heft (SiC is lighter than AlOx), and even the smell of the stones when they're brand new and clean: a clean & dry AlOx stone smells more like natural stone, whereas the SiC stone is entirely different, smelling at times of a sort of burnt rubber or carbon(ish) aroma, more apparent when sharpening on a dry stone.

I think the 'Fine' side of Norton's Economy stone is approximately ~280-grit or so (CAMI scale). Norton rates their Coarse Crystolon at ~120-grit (discussion w/Saint Gobain confirmed the Economy's SiC is their 'Crystolon' grit, BTW). The ACE stones appear to be very close to the Norton grit performance, maybe even identical. I jump back & forth quite frequently using my Norton Economy and the 4" ACE stone, and can't tell the difference between them in grinding speed or finish.


David

 

[jc57]

I've got a smaller Ace stone that I bought a few years ago. It's 4" x 1 3/4" x 1/2", two sided combo stone, and certainly looks and feels like the Norton Economy SiC stone. I just got them both out and compared them side by side. Seem to be made from the same material to me. Same color and texture. Though there are some small differences in porosity of the coarse side and smoothness of the fine side (Norton Economy seems to be of a slightly higher fit and finish).

But other than that, I'd say they are both SiC. They may have changed the product since then, it was about 3 years ago.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I've got a smaller Ace stone that I bought a few years ago. It's 4" x 1 3/4" x 1/2", two sided combo stone, and certainly looks and feels like the Norton Economy SiC stone. I just got them both out and compared them side by side. Seem to be made from the same material to me. Same color and texture. Though there are some small differences in porosity of the coarse side and smoothness of the fine side (Norton Economy seems to be of a slightly higher fit and finish).

But other than that, I'd say they are both SiC. They may have changed the product since then, it was about 3 years ago.

I have that stone, bought maybe ~2 years ago or so, and your description of it mirrors mine as well. The fit/finish of Norton's Economy seems somewhat variable to me; I have two of those. The first one I bought had somewhat upturned corners on it (not flat, but good enough), though the 2nd one seemed a bit better. ACE's stones are still USA-made, and Norton's have been coming from Mexico and/or South America (Brazil), it seems. At the price point of either brand, they're all a bargain.

Forgot to mention another easily identifiable trait of the SiC stones, as compared to the aluminum oxide stones. The SiC stones shed grit much more readily than the AlOx stones will, which is also why (I'm sure) they're less prone to glazing or losing aggressiveness. That trait also means they're much easier to flatten or lap, if necessary, and even using an AlOx stone to do so. I originally used my AlOx tile rubbing stone to chamfer the corners on my Norton Economy SiC stone; takes only a few passes and mere seconds' time to do it.


David

 

[jc57]

One of my Norton Economys had the same issue with a raised ridge around the edges. I used the old sidewalk, soapy water, and sand combo to flatten it out.

The Nortons were made in Mexico as you mentioned (it's printed on the sides of the stones). The Ace is unmarked on the stone itself, and the packaging is long gone. For the size, it makes a good little carry-with-me stone for impromptu touchups.


Edit:
Interestingly, my Norton stones are marked 87933, but they are also very definitely made of the exact same material as my genuine Norton Pike Crystolon combo stone. I compared them side by side with the Crystolon, and a Norton Pike India stone. Besides the difference in color (between the dark gray SiC and the brown AlOx of the India), the material is very clearly the same as the Crystolon, and not at all like the India.

I had never noticed the difference in smell before, but you're right. The India stone has almost no odor, and what little it has is oddly pleasant, a natural scent. The SiC stones have a whiff of asphalt or something slightly chemical. Also barely noticeable. I only use the light mineral oil on them, they don't have much of an oil odor to mask it.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I had never noticed the difference in smell before, but you're right. The India stone has almost no odor, and what little it has is oddly pleasant, a natural scent. The SiC stones have a whiff of asphalt or something slightly chemical. Also barely noticeable. I only use the light mineral oil on them, they don't have much of an oil odor to mask it.

You can definitely smell the SiC as it breaks down, especially if using it to lap something hard like an Arkansas stone. I just tuned up my reel mower and that smell tells me when its time to add more fresh grit.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

One of my Norton Economys had the same issue with a raised ridge around the edges. I used the old sidewalk, soapy water, and sand combo to flatten it out.

The Nortons were made in Mexico as you mentioned (it's printed on the sides of the stones). The Ace is unmarked on the stone itself, and the packaging is long gone. For the size, it makes a good little carry-with-me stone for impromptu touchups.


Edit:
Interestingly, my Norton stones are marked 87933, but they are also very definitely made of the exact same material as my genuine Norton Pike Crystolon combo stone. I compared them side by side with the Crystolon, and a Norton Pike India stone. Besides the difference in color (between the dark gray SiC and the brown AlOx of the India), the material is very clearly the same as the Crystolon, and not at all like the India.

I had never noticed the difference in smell before, but you're right. The India stone has almost no odor, and what little it has is oddly pleasant, a natural scent. The SiC stones have a whiff of asphalt or something slightly chemical. Also barely noticeable. I only use the light mineral oil on them, they don't have much of an oil odor to mask it.

The 87933 product ID is the designated 'Economy' stone, and also the one that Norton changed from AlOx to SiC back in 2008; it retained the same product number after the change. I'd seen that catalog picture with the older AlOx (grey) stone, and noticed it looked different than the newer SiC version I'd found at Home Depot. And consideriing it's price, I'd asked Norton (Saint Gobain) to clarify what the newer version was (AlOx or SiC), and also why it was priced much lower than the other seemingly indentical 6" x 2" 87935 SiC stone pictured in the catalog (those were priced at around $20, versus the $6-$7 for the Norton Economy SiC stone). Never really got an answer as to the price difference with the 87935 stone, but they did confirm the newer 87933 Economy stone was in fact Crystolon (SiC).


David

 

[sir_mike]

Man, all this talk about the Norton $6-7 SiC stone lately makes me want one. I think the one I have is the older one or Alox version. I can't find one of the SiC ones locally so can anyone help me snag one?

 

[jc57]

They seem to have vanished from the face of the Earth, sir_mike. Mine are now rare collector's item heirlooms.