Not liking the feel of Shapton Pro 8K

N

nuggetz

Joined
Jul 25, 2013
Messages
39
Not sure if it's just me but this is one of my first "better" stone purchases and I find that it loads up and the feedback I'm getting from this stone is pretty terrible. When I sharpen off of this stone I think I'm feeling the knife steel dragging against the loaded steel particles and its screwing up my rhythm. When compared to a King 6K, when I have a perfect angle on that thing and have a good rhythm going the feeling is nice and smooth. I can totally feel that my bevel is in perfect contact with the stone. If I loose my angle, the King gives me feedback and I can correct. However, the Shapton doesn't really exhibit this behavior so I'm wondering if its due to the fact that its a higher grit stone or just a problem with the Shapton. I even rubbed some nagura on it which helped a little but not a lot. w
 
The Shapton stones are harder so they will not have the feedback of a softer stone. Being harder also means that the sloppy technique one can acquire using softer stones takes some time to overcome when using harder stones. You are no exception, you will need to adjust just like the rest of us.

Do you only have the Shapton 8k? What other stones are you using?
 
I have a mixed bag that I got from a friend a while back. I have a norton 250/1000 combo, the King 6k and the Shapton Pro melon 8K. I wouldn't say my technique is sloppy as I take my time and a lock things in. The main issue I'm having is the feel I get when the edge is riding on all the loaded metal on the 8K.
 
If you do not have Shaptons to precede the 8k then the 8k is a bit useless. Shapton's work as a system and the fine grits will not play well without other Shaptons. 2k, 5k, 8k, would be good but using random stones before the 8k, not so much.

You may not think you are sloppy but if you use softer stones then there is a lot of fudge room. It's a product of the rate of stone wear and the flatness of the stone throughout the duration of the sharpening. Shapton's hold shape better and stay flat longer which in turn requires you to refine technique and hold a better angle. It's not a bad thing and with practice will greatly improve the edges you create.

My technique is much more refined than most and these things happen to me, just the facts of sharpening.
 
Jason B. said:
If you do not have Shaptons to precede the 8k then the 8k is a bit useless. Shapton's work as a system and the fine grits will not play well without other Shaptons. 2k, 5k, 8k, would be good but using random stones before the 8k, not so much.
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What's your logic here? Ive been able to produce hair whittling edges with these three stones so I'm not sure how things would be better if they were all Shapetons.
 
No logic needed, Shapton's are a system and work best when used as such.
 
Ok, but why? Saying that no logic is needed sounds like somewhat of a marketing gimmick.
 
Different stones cut steel differently. They say, "don't use diamond stones on simple carbon steels." because of how the diamonds cut into the steel and the scratch pattern/depth is totally different than other stones. I don't pretend to know all that Jason does, or some of the other fellas here, but I am learning that it certainly makes a difference. I'm not super familiar with the Shapton system, but it does stand to reason to use the shapton stones, if you use a shapton stone to final polish. The difference in the way various stones cut steel is incredible. Some stones just don't work well pared together. Other stones seem to compliment each other. If you want to jump down that rabbit hole, search Cliff Stamp, his blog Towards /1 micron. You'll quickly learn how much you don't know about sharpening. I grew up sharpening knives....thought I was hot stuff. Until I came here and started reading! Now I am like Sgt Shultz....I know nothing!!!
 
To be methodical & assuring certain outcome. Staying with one class of stone abrasive and substrate attributes would eliminate a need to compensate scratch pattern from inter-stone-class. Shapton ceramic scratch/abrading depth is fairly consistent across steels type & hardness - a little less harsh/deep than fixed cbn & diamond.

I found under microscope (only looked twice), 52100 65rc surface after (no mud sharpening) King 4K is much more refined than Shapton Pro 5K. Since I don't have shapton pro higher than 5K, my steel polishing (for microscope) progression sometime goes as: shapton pro & glass 220 thru 5K, King 4K & 6K, Kitayama 8K, finger leather diamond rub 1um to 0.25um.

So with a little thinking, mix-match to tree-top. While in a hurry & can careless, best to stick with a consistent path of abrading progression.
 
nuggetz said:
When I sharpen off of this stone I think I'm feeling the knife steel dragging against the loaded steel particles and its screwing up my rhythm.
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Hi Nuggetz, I've looked and have yet to find any information on "loaded steel particles" in Shapton stones. Has Shapton integrated steel into their ceramic stones?

As regards sticking to a system of stones in order not to screw up your technique, as Jason B. has suggested, I respectfully say baloney to that. Having an individual sharpening angle deeply embedded in your muscle memory, as most of us do, means just that. Moving from one stone to the next, be it a Japanese waterstone or a Shapton or an Arkansas Black or a Belgian yellow or blue, makes no difference as long as you are concentrating on your work and not simultaneously tasting wines. I'm an old man and have the wildest collection of stones one can imagine. I have never owned anything even remotely related to a system and still have the sharpest knives on the block. If during the sharpening process something seems to be lacking, it is most likely concentration on one's sharpening angle and has nothing to do with switching from this manufacturer to that, or from one kind of stone to the next.

Sam
 
Sam,

There are reasons you can go from Stone A to Stone B, but going from Stone A to Stone C can have a poor outcome. I'm sorry if this does not compute but it's true.

Not all stones are the same and not all abrasives cut in the same way, just simple facts. If you do not care to educate yourself with the differences in sharpening stones I don't know what to tell you.
 
To rid my stones of swarf and metal particles, I wash them with mineral oil and squeegee them off with a rubber kitchen spatula. The only exception (for me) is diamond "stones" which I wash with water and leave damp while sharpening.
 
General thoughts:
It usually goes a lot faster and with more reliable outcome to stay with same line of products if possible. This is a lot more critical with waterstones as the density and release rate can vary considerably. What seems like a good progression across media might not be so. Overcoming a poor choice of progression gets steadily more difficult as the polish level goes up and the stones have smaller range of effectiveness. It can be done, but expect some trouble and learning curve before dialing in.

On all my waterstones and similar I have used a diamond sawsall blade or wet saw to cut a small slice off the end of the stone. I use this to unload the stone and help keep it flat in use. Also comes in handy for making some mud if desired. I do not miss the extra 1/4" off the end of the stone, having matched "Nagura" stones for all my JWS is priceless.
 
Jason B. said:
There are reasons you can go from Stone A to Stone B, but going from Stone A to Stone C can have a poor outcome.
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I may well be misinterpreting something here, so I'll try to be more precise. I was not referring to moving from Stone A to Stone C, but to your assertion further above in the discussion that, and I quote you here,
"If you do not have Shaptons to precede the 8k then the 8k is a bit useless. Shapton's work as a system and the fine grits will not play well without other Shaptons."

Does that mean that a 4k or 6k grit on a Japanese waterstone or any other stone is not an adequate preparation for a Shapton 8k? Or that a Shapton 2k and 5k will somehow be inadequate if the next finer stone used is not from Shapton? I also fail to see the logic in this. Sounds like an advertising campaign.

Experience has taught me that when moving from coarse to fine grits, any manufacturer will do, provided I'm in good shape that day and maintaining my angle. The only "memory" a blade's bevel has is the system of scratches from the last stone or two, and if we could interview that bevel, I seriously doubt that it would be able to tell us which stone caused which scratch.

Sam
 
Its known as proper grit progression; the very same is required when making a knife and finishing the primary bevels and ricasso areas. Its not recommended to go from 36 grit to 120 grit, without visiting 60 and 80 grit abrasive surfaces. The larger scratches need to be removed before moving to the next grit in line.

I've had days where I found myself with only 60 grit and 220 grit. The sanding task can be accomplished with these two grits, but it takes a lot of time to do so. The same thing applies with secondary bevels, cutting edges. Its nice to have a full compliment of stones or plates, but its not necessary. After all, an edge can be made sharp on the rim of a coffee cup and the blade doesn't know it from the finest stone.
 
Does that mean that a 4k or 6k grit on a Japanese waterstone or any other stone is not an adequate preparation for a Shapton 8k? Or that a Shapton 2k and 5k will somehow be inadequate if the next finer stone used is not from Shapton? I also fail to see the logic in this. Sounds like an advertising campaign.
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Yes, and here's why.

Japanese Waterstones are graded in the JIS system but most don't know there is an old and new JIS rating with many stone makers still using both. Shapton stones use the old standard which make them coarser than comparable stones so that's were things start going down hill. Next, the Shapton stones use a sharp and very hard ceramic cuttng media which leaves a more pronounced scratch pattern. When trying to transition between different stones with different grinding media, binders, hardness, and densities you can inherit issues you have not experienced before.

For example,

When I am using my Shapton pro stones if I start with the 1k I will get the best results if I continue with the 2k and 5k. Now, if I replace my Shapton Pro 2k for my Shapton Glass 2k and follow the same progression I get a slightly different result in finish and a much bigger result in the final edge, both of which have a negative impact.

The reason I say the Shaptons are a system is the same reason I would call the Chosera, superstones, Arashiyama, Kohetsu, Imanishi, Nubatama and many other stone brands a system. It's because there were designed to work together and when you start mixing them up you get mixed results.

I have no reason to advertise for Shapton (or any other stone brand) but as a professional sharpener and educator it's my duty to understand the differences in stones and why they work as they do. If you do not believe me then I cannot help that, but I own stones from all the brands I have listed above and use them daily. This daily use allows me to have enough understanding of these stones to also understand the OP's issue and give him a path to correct it. I have yet to see anything from you that gives any insight to the problem.
 
The OP indicated that he was getting poor feedback from the Shapton stone, relative to the King 6k that he indicated he was familiar with, I don't believe this says anything about his technique, just that the feedback, he is getting, is different from what he gets with the slightly finer stone.

Not many of us have entire sets of specific makes of stones but usually have acquired stones over time and of a variety. As with any sharpening situation the key is understanding what condition the edge is in and then selecting an appropriate stone or belt or plate or a combination of tools, so as to finish with the edge you desire. One can spend a fortune on sharpening equipment, there is 40,000 dollars worth in my shop, but that is not whats necessary to keep your blades sharp. Its understanding what the possibilities of any cutting edge are and then using those acquired skills and the tools at hand to produce the needed edge. If I'm caught away from my vast storehouse of sharpening goodies its my broad knowledge of the possibilities of an edge that usually saves the day.
 
Jason B. said:
...understand the OP's issue and give him a path to correct it. I have yet to see anything from you that gives any insight to the problem.
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In his very first post nuggetz told us what his problem is: He writes that losing his angle on the King was not a problem because it gave him immediate
feedback and he thus was able to correct it. The Shapton, on the other hand, fails to give him this feedback, so it can be assumed that with the Shapton he also strays from the angle he wants (why should it be otherwise there?) and the stone is not telling him soon enough that he has strayed, thus he spends time polishing an area near the edge that is certainly very close to but not identical with the bevel he wants to polish. That usually results in a knife that is duller than we want it to be. Nuggetz is looking at the stone as a possible source of the problem, and I say that his own words indicate a problem of technique. There is a solution for that.

However, the solution, as I mentioned a couple days ago, has nothing to do with replacing the King with a similar stone from the Shapton family so that the Shapton 8K that follows might feel more at home with the scratch pattern it is now facing. If we take this curious logic one strange step further, does that mean that the
polishing cream and leather used by most of use as a finishing step also has to be a member of the same Shapton family and the bulls they breed? No, the solution lies
in maintaining one's angle so that at the end of the process the bevel from one side meets with the bevel on the other side to create as perfect a wedge as humanly
possible. After that goal is achieved, we can spend a little more time refining those bevels if we so choose, decreasing the scratch pattern by using continually finer
grits found in any darn stones we happen to have at hand or can borrow from a neighbor; we can polish the daylights out of it if we want to, add a micro-bevel,
whatever pleases us on that particular day. All kinds of quality mixed-bag stones will get you there, even old ceramic plates and cups, as Fred.Rowe mentioned above -
provided we maintain our angle.

What we all need and what all experienced sharpeners have is muscle memory in our wrists, arms, shoulders, not unlike that of violinists and pianists who can play
Beethoven in the dark. This takes a long time to master, hours and hours and hours of sharpening, but it can be mastered and it helps us become relatively independent of feedback from the stone. I'm not against such feedback, but if the stone tends to remain silent, like the Shapton 8K is said to do, it won't confuse us much if our muscle memory is in place. Of course, another solution would be to buy and stick to a fixed-angle sharpening system, which frees the person sharpening from all anxiety connected to angle maintenance. An awful lot of people do just that and gathering from what I hear and read, they are very pleased with the results, so much so that they avoid the kind of discussions we are now having.

Trying to "educate" others by claiming that things might go "down hill" if you stray beyond the system Shapton or Chosera and others have marketed is a belief I would
not want to see unchallenged here. It's along the same lines as saying that only original BMW parts will consistently get you safely from A to B, or that a Nikon
camera with a Canon lens is going to get you into photographic hot water. It's nonsense.
 
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