Novice Vs. Expert freehand skills

[tuffluv]

Which three (3) skills does an expert freehand sharpener have that a novice should strive to achieve? I'm curious to hear your opinion.

I'm a novice but here's my opinion:

1. Maintaining constant bevel angle
2. Burr development
3. Grit selection/progression

 

[aesmith]

I'm going to say just say "1. Maintaining constant bevel angle". Consistent between stokes, when flipping back and forth between the sides, consistent from the hilt right to the tip (which is a challenge in itself). And constant between sharpening sessions of course. The other two that you list, you need those for any form of sharpening, and in fact I think they're easier freehand than using a system since you can choose your angle.

I'm trying to switch to freehand for more stuff, and the knife in my pocket illustrates all this perfectly - it's as sharp as I have ever got it, the sharpening was quick, but it's not pretty because I varied the angle more than I'd like.

 

[JR88FAN]

I'm going to say just say "1. Maintaining constant bevel angle". Consistent between stokes, when flipping back and forth between the sides, consistent from the hilt right to the tip (which is a challenge in itself). And constant between sharpening sessions of course. The other two that you list, you need those for any form of sharpening, and in fact I think they're easier freehand than using a system since you can choose your angle.

I'm trying to switch to freehand for more stuff, and the knife in my pocket illustrates all this perfectly - it's as sharp as I have ever got it, the sharpening was quick, but it's not pretty because I varied the angle more than I'd like.

^^^^^This.

You want to be hitting the edge, and, at the correct angle.
It's really scary what you can do to an edge when you first start freehand sharpening!!

It's all part of learning, you need to make those mistakes to learn to understand the correct process....

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Which three (3) skills does an expert freehand sharpener have that a novice should strive to achieve? I'm curious to hear your opinion.

I'm a novice but here's my opinion:

1. Maintaining constant bevel angle
2. Burr development
3. Grit selection/progression

The thing that made the biggest impact for me, personally, was developing the 'feel' for flush contact at the very edge (apex). I don't really like the concept of 'maintaining constant bevel angle', because it implies that all sharp edges MUST have perfectly flat bevels intersecting at the apex, in order to be sharp. That's an ideal representation, and definitely will produce a sharp edge; but it doesn't reflect how an edge can still be sharp at the apex with at least some convexity behind the apex (and 'convexity' implies an angle which doesn't stay perfectly constant). The trick comes down to feeling when the apex itself is just making flush contact, and not going beyond (above) that angle, which would dull it. If one can feel when the apex just begins to 'bite' into the stone as it becomes thinner, and make immediate adjustments to protect that newly-formed apex, things get a whole lot easier in sharpening, with an almost profound improvement in results.


David

 

[JR88FAN]

The thing that made the biggest impact for me, personally, was developing the 'feel' for flush contact at the very edge (apex). I don't really like the concept of 'maintaining constant bevel angle', because it implies that all sharp edges MUST have perfectly flat bevels intersecting at the apex, in order to be sharp. That's an ideal representation, and definitely will produce a sharp edge; but it doesn't reflect how an edge can still be sharp at the apex with at least some convexity behind the apex (and 'convexity' implies an angle which doesn't stay perfectly constant). The trick comes down to feeling when the apex itself is just making flush contact, and not going beyond (above) that angle, which would dull it. If one can feel when the apex just begins to 'bite' into the stone as it becomes thinner, and make immediate adjustments to protect that newly-formed apex, things get a whole lot easier in sharpening, with an almost profound improvement in results.


David

This is correct, but that 'feel' which eventually replaces the sharpie and becomes second nature takes a while to develop....

As a novice, and a frustrated one, the OP should just focus on hitting the apex in the simplest way, and as the most important aspect of freehand right now.

 

[HeavyHanded]

The thing that made the biggest impact for me, personally, was developing the 'feel' for flush contact at the very edge (apex). I don't really like the concept of 'maintaining constant bevel angle', because it implies that all sharp edges MUST have perfectly flat bevels intersecting at the apex, in order to be sharp. That's an ideal representation, and definitely will produce a sharp edge; but it doesn't reflect how an edge can still be sharp at the apex with at least some convexity behind the apex (and 'convexity' implies an angle which doesn't stay perfectly constant). The trick comes down to feeling when the apex itself is just making flush contact, and not going beyond (above) that angle, which would dull it. If one can feel when the apex just begins to 'bite' into the stone as it becomes thinner, and make immediate adjustments to protect that newly-formed apex, things get a whole lot easier in sharpening, with an almost profound improvement in results.


David

^ This.
I still advise people beginning to just learn how to work with coarse stones - don't worry about polishing anything to start. Makes it easy to see the burr form, gives you a good idea how to shrink it, the coarse stone generates plenty of feedback. Until you learn to feel the edge, you will always be running on muscle memory and rote formula. This is probably the largest limiting factor to creating good consistent freehand edges, especially across a range of tools and abrasives. The margin of error shrinks as the grit size shrinks, without a strong foundation at the low end it will be tough to continue improving.

 

[Honed_Edge]

One thing the master sharpeners here forget is, like any skill it takes continuous practice to maintain high levels of skill. I learned how to freehand and can do all the hanging hair phone book tricks. However, sometimes when I don't sharpen for a few weeks it takes me a little to get back into it. If you only sharpen once a month, the odds are your skill will stay low. The fact I had 50+ knifes to sharpen meant I was very busy for a long time. Working the metal nightly really accelerated the learning. Get a lot of knives or just cut some concrete and just keep sharpening. Go nuts for a few weeks and you will be amazed. I started with DMT's and feel any good stones will do just fine, you just have to use them! YouTube is awesome. Search for freehand sharpening and the first three videos are just priceless. They guy sharpening on the bathroom sink taught me how to sharpen, even though he doesn't know!

 

[JR88FAN]

^ This.
I still advise people beginning to just learn how to work with coarse stones - don't worry about polishing anything to start. Makes it easy to see the burr form, gives you a good idea how to shrink it, the coarse stone generates plenty of feedback. Until you learn to feel the edge, you will always be running on muscle memory and rote formula. This is probably the largest limiting factor to creating good consistent freehand edges, especially across a range of tools and abrasives. The margin of error shrinks as the grit size shrinks, without a strong foundation at the low end it will be tough to continue improving.

The only issue I have with that stems from my personal experience...

I started freehand on a 200 Grit stone, and an old Spyderco Native, many years ago....

The thing I learned from that experience was that as a very novice freehand sharpener at the time, a coarse stone will really mess up a blade fast...especially when you are just trying to figure things out.

A finer stone, let's say 400-600 Grit, gives you much more room for error, without re profiling your blade to 7DPS at the tip and 18 at the ricasso, as you are trying to learn....

 

[kootenay joe]

David, you say when you can feel the apex just beginning to bite into the stone, then make immediate adjustments to protect it. Would you mind describing this "adjustment" ? I need to correctly understand this part for my own improvement.
thanks, kj

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

David, you say when you can feel the apex just beginning to bite into the stone, then make immediate adjustments to protect it. Would you mind describing this "adjustment" ? I need to correctly understand this part for my own improvement.
thanks, kj

Basically, for me, it comes down to using the hands/fingers to feel what's going on with contact between blade & stone. When grinding a new bevel, and BEFORE the apex is reached, it'll often feel sort of like the blade is 'skating' on the stone, and you won't yet discern any 'edge' digging in. When the new bevel finally extends fully to the apex, the new sharp edge will tend to dig into the abrasive, and the feel will change dramatically; you might even hear it, if you're paying attention. I sort of equate the 'biting' sensation with how a snow shovel will 'bite' into a concrete driveway or sidewalk if you lift the handle (raising the angle) until the shovel stops sliding easily forward, after which you can't help but notice more resistance to forward motion and you'll also hear it grinding much more coarsely. If shovelling snow, when you feel that edge digging in, the automatic reaction is to drop the handle a bit (lowering the angle) until you can feel that you're encountering less resistance while still getting that 'edge' effectively underneath the snow & ice you're removing. As you continue to work, you're constantly feeling for that increased friction/resistance at the edge, and doing a balancing act raising/lowering the handle as needed to keep the shovel scooping up snow as tight to the surface as possible. This is where repetition will 'train' the hands to keep it on balance, in either activity. May sound like an odd comparison, but the parallels always come to my mind when I'm sharpening, AND even when I'm shovelling snow in the wintertime. Each of these activities always reminds me of the other.


David

 

[awestib]

It's the feel for bevel for me too!

Once I have ground in a bevel, burr on both sides, removing the burr with single edge leading strokes - that's when I start to feel really for the flush contact of the bevel on the stone. I use very light pressure and I can tell whether it slides like "wet ice on wet ice" or whether it is more a scraping of two surfaces against each other. Sometimes the single stroke starts out smooth but then changes into "scarping" at what point I have to adjust the angle or even just slightly the direction of movement. Sometimes (often ...) I go the wrong way, thought I was at the shoulder but really was at the apex, more straight but really more to the right or so. That is really where I try to improve the edge with every single stroke.

 

[kootenay joe]

Thanks David. I understand the fine tuning of the hand now.
kj

 

[aesmith]

The thing that made the biggest impact for me, personally, was developing the 'feel' for flush contact at the very edge (apex). I don't really like the concept of 'maintaining constant bevel angle', because it implies that all sharp edges MUST have perfectly flat bevels intersecting at the apex, in order to be sharp. That's an ideal representation, and definitely will produce a sharp edge; but it doesn't reflect how an edge can still be sharp at the apex with at least some convexity behind the apex (and 'convexity' implies an angle which doesn't stay perfectly constant). The trick comes down to feeling when the apex itself is just making flush contact, and not going beyond (above) that angle, which would dull it. If one can feel when the apex just begins to 'bite' into the stone as it becomes thinner, and make immediate adjustments to protect that newly-formed apex, things get a whole lot easier in sharpening, with an almost profound improvement in results

That's not what I meant to say, in fact the knife in my pocket right now says otherwise since it's as sharp as sharp, but with quite convexed bevel. However keeping a consistent angle means less metal needs to be removed, and less time spent. That may not mean exactly the same angle throughout the process, there might be some logic in using a very slightly steeper angle when changing to a finer grit so that only the very edge gets worked.

 

[HeavyHanded]

The only issue I have with that stems from my personal experience...

I started freehand on a 200 Grit stone, and an old Spyderco Native, many years ago....

The thing I learned from that experience was that as a very novice freehand sharpener at the time, a coarse stone will really mess up a blade fast...especially when you are just trying to figure things out.

A finer stone, let's say 400-600 Grit, gives you much more room for error, without re profiling your blade to 7DPS at the tip and 18 at the ricasso, as you are trying to learn....

The coarse stone will certainly eat the edge a lot faster, no doubt. On the plus side it makes an edge that tends to stay functional longer for hard use. The only way to learn how to set the bevel is to do it a number of times, something that can become very frustrating on some steels with medium grit abrasives. I've even advocated using no load sandpaper and practicing on flat aluminum stock or hardwood in some cases if the individual has zero skill.

Speaking to what David mentions, I will occasionally begin setting a bevel by making a light pass with spine elevated so I can feel the apex drag, then a light pass with the spine lowered so the shoulder drags, then calibrate between the two. If I need to reorient, I do so by lowering the spine and referencing the shoulder. At some point you'll be "trapped" between the shoulder and the apex - the functional limit of one's mechanics and tactile feedback. Works the same way with a convex, but have to work with changes in feedback depending on location along the convex and the apex. This is where sneaking up on the edge comes into play.

 

[awestib]

That's not what I meant to say, in fact the knife in my pocket right now says otherwise since it's as sharp as sharp, but with quite convexed bevel. However keeping a consistent angle means less metal needs to be removed, and less time spent. That may not mean exactly the same angle throughout the process, there might be some logic in using a very slightly steeper angle when changing to a finer grit so that only the very edge gets worked.

That sounds like a very different approach all together but at first it does make sense to increase the angle a bit for the next finer stone so less material needs to be worked. A facetted edge of some sort. Secondary edge 10 dps, tertiary edge 15 dps, quaternary edge 20 dps. Each on the next finer stone. I have seen some videos of woodworkers sharpening their chisels/planes this way. My problem with that is that at the end I don't really know where I am. The feedback is really poor at the highest grit/angle combination so I would have to rely on a wedge or something. The Spyderco Sharpmaker is set up this way, 15 dps back bevel (or secondary) and 20 dps edge bevel (tertiary or maybe Microbevel?). There is still no guaranty that there is no burr for instance so if I wanted to strop, which angle then? Without a wedge or a guided system, touch up on stones gets difficult since I would not be able to find that final edge angle again. Whereas if I had a well defined secondary bevel, it would be much easier (sorry for the grammar ...).

 

[HeavyHanded]

Back when my only fine stone was a hard Arkansas, I'd usually elevate the spine a touch and do a broad microbevel on the last step when working stainless. Otherwise I'd be at it too long and likely to round the edge with impatience.

For myself, I've found any increase in mechanical precision I can eke out usually leads to a increase in edge quality especially at higher finish levels. Not that the edge cannot be convexed, but the more control one can muster, the more one can apply anywhere along the edge - this can lead to some real precision along the apex, be it convex or V bevel. Since edges have a tendency to "creep" larger at finer finishes, anything that can limit the amount of unintended wobble is worth exploring.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

That's not what I meant to say, in fact the knife in my pocket right now says otherwise since it's as sharp as sharp, but with quite convexed bevel. However keeping a consistent angle means less metal needs to be removed, and less time spent. That may not mean exactly the same angle throughout the process, there might be some logic in using a very slightly steeper angle when changing to a finer grit so that only the very edge gets worked.

I get that. Never meant to imply otherwise about your edges or anyone elses. :thumbup:

The emphasis on 'keeping the angle constant', as exactly worded, can be misconstrued at times. Some might be led to believe a guided system is the only way to ensure bevels are perfectly flat, and therefore the only way to make the edge as sharp as it can be. Fully thinning and protecting the apex itself is what'll make the bigger difference in the end. Many of us, including myself, have advised others to 'keep the angle constant' to minimize rounding of the apex; but in the real world of freehand sharpening, that's something that never really occurs anyway. It's an ideal to strive for and it motivates greater precision in technique; but it's not essential, so long as most of the inconsistency (convexity) stays behind the apex, instead of directly impacting it.


David

 

[calc]

Which three (3) skills does an expert freehand sharpener have that a novice should strive to achieve? I'm curious to hear your opinion.

I'm a novice but here's my opinion:

1. Maintaining constant bevel angle
2. Burr development
3. Grit selection/progression

I don't view those as discrete, separate processes. Each one affects and depends on the others.

 

[JR88FAN]

The coarse stone will certainly eat the edge a lot faster, no doubt. On the plus side it makes an edge that tends to stay functional longer for hard use. The only way to learn how to set the bevel is to do it a number of times, something that can become very frustrating on some steels with medium grit abrasives. I've even advocated using no load sandpaper and practicing on flat aluminum stock or hardwood in some cases if the individual has zero skill.




Speaking to what David mentions, I will occasionally begin setting a bevel by making a light pass with spine elevated so I can feel the apex drag, then a light pass with the spine lowered so the shoulder drags, then calibrate between the two. If I need to reorient, I do so by lowering the spine and referencing the shoulder. At some point you'll be "trapped" between the shoulder and the apex - the functional limit of one's mechanics and tactile feedback. Works the same way with a convex, but have to work with changes in feedback depending on location along the convex and the apex. This is where sneaking up on the edge comes into play.

Agreed with everything you posted, I am just looking at this from a complete beginners perspective and trying to give the OP a few simple things to try.
This can all get very overwhelming when you begin to freehand sharpen.

I don't think you realize the freedom it gives you until you really get comfortable with a solid technique, the problem is, a lot of people give up and turn to guided sharpeners because it seems that freehand is too complicated and overwhelming...

I am just trying to keep things simple in my advice because I don't want the OP to give up....

 

[hank_rearden]

My own measure is if the result impresses others (especially when using limited and rudimentary material.) That's how you can tell you're an above average free-hander.