Nyc Edc

[urbnspyd]

I currently live in NYC. I know the knife laws have changed a little over the past year. I currently EDC a spyderco tenacious, for those who don't know the knife, it's a liner-locking, 3 3/8" blade folder. I always conceal carry and I carry for utility purposes only, never SD (if asked). I read somewhere that all locking folding knives can be considered "gravity" knives and are therefore illegal. Is this true? and by carrying this knife, am I committing a crime?

Any help in layman's terms will help, It's hard to understand the way the laws are written on many websites I have looked at.

 

[gnius]

*edited to prevent googling

 

[mp510]

New York State law defines a gravity knife as any knife that has a locking blade and that can be opened by centrifugial force.New York appellate courts have held that centrifugial force means that the knife may be flipped open, either by flipping open the handle or the blade. Virtually every lock knife that I have ever owned or examined may somehow be flipped open- albeit sometimes difficult. While you may not encounter a LEO while carrying, or you may encounter an understanding LEO as did the previous poster, it very likely that you would be charged with the appropriate degree of criminal posession of a weapon, which will either be an A-Misdomeanor or a D-Felony dependant on your prior record. A bulk of the cases come out of NYC. Many of those that come out of coutnies other than NYC have the criminal possession charge as an add on to a drug or violence (ie assault) charge. The definition is accepted enough that the appellate cases really don't question whether the meaning of centrifugial force, but search and siezure/ LE Intervention issues.

On an aside, criminal possession of a weapon is a nasty charge to have on your rap sheet. It will show up on NCIC even if you are not convited (ie plea to a lesser charge). I was listening to the audio transcript of a recent CT administrative appeals hearing today, that involved the character of an individual. That individual had been arrested twice for criminal posession in NYS. The first time was well over 2 decades ago, way upstate. The police responded to an individual shooting a .22 rifle on their property. They were booked for 4d. criminal possession (a-misd). Shortly thereafter, the charge was reduced to a local ordinance violation, and again to discharge in too close proximity of a building at arraignment. The individual ultimately plead guilty to a (violation class????) disturbance charge. Several years later they were arrested for 3d. criminal posession (for details that did not seem as straightforward). The individual ultimately plead guilty to 4d. criminal posession. (There was another criminal conviction between the two criminalposession arrests). While the appellant successfully made their case to the board, regarding their character (due to the length of time between their last conviction and the present), the board expressed serious concerns about the criminal posession charges. While the NCIC report did not indicate that a gun was involved, the board quickly came to the question (in effect) "What....were you toting a gun around or something?" , and admitted that they didn't quite understand what the NYS charge meant. Imagine how a perspective employer (or something) might look at the same.

 

[gnius]

A bulk of the cases come out of NYC. Many of those that come out of coutnies other than NYC have the criminal possession charge as an add on to a drug or violence (ie assault) charge.

*edited to prevent Googling

That being said, the previous poster is correct (and I mentioned it as well) - ANY locking knife can get you in trouble if the LEO wants to stretch the law.

 

[wintermute]

New York appellate courts have held that centrifugial force means that the knife may be flipped open, either by flipping open the handle or the blade.

That's interesting. I figured they would need case law to back up what "centrifugal force" is, since, from a scientific standpoint there is no such thing as centrifugal force. And if you take what is colloquially considered centrifugal force - angular momentum, it could extend to any folding knife, whether it's a tactical folder, a slipjoint, a swiss army knife, etc. Sorry, just a geeky engineer that deals with a lot of attorneys.

 

[mp510]

And if you take what is colloquially considered centrifugal force - angular momentum, it could extend to any folding knife, whether it's a tactical folder, a slipjoint, a swiss army knife, etc. Sorry, just a geeky engineer that deals with a lot of attorneys

The statuatory verbiage stipulates that a locking blade is a necessary component of a gravity knife. But yes, locking SAK's can be flipped open (though the sidelockers are tough).

 

[mp510]

I don't know. I guess it depends on who you are. The brooklyn ADA told me that it's virtually impossible to get a weapons charge for carrying a knife that doesn't obviously breach the law, unless it's an add-on charge that accompanies other criminal charges.

It's neither a productive endeavor, nor an easy conviction, if the person has a good social standing and no priors. A DA won't waste his/her time on it. That isn't to say that you can't get arrested for it. But again, same rules apply - if the weapon doesn't LOOK threatening, and if you're not detained for unrelated criminal activity, few people are going to waste their time trying to get you in trouble. I don't do drugs, I don't steal, and I don't engage in any activity that would otherwise get me in trouble. I am a medical professional, and my knife is a utility blade and rescue tool. Not only is it a good excuse, but it is also absolutely true.

That being said, the previous poster is correct (and I mentioned it as well) - ANY locking knife can get you in trouble if the LEO wants to stretch the law.

You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride. The fact of the matter is, weapons arrests are a high priority for NYPD. Even if a conviction doesn't result, a defendant will still likely incur costs and have gotten the oppertunity to make some new friends.

Weapons violations can be very easy to prove at trial. Here is the actual jury instructions for 4d. misdomeanor criminal possession: http://www.nycourts.gov/cji/2-PenalLaw/265/265-01(1)1.pdf
The people only need to prove 2 points-
1. That the person possessed the weapon (including that the weapon was in fact a prohibited weapon)
2. That he did the same knowingly.
This is very straightforward. It is presumable that a NYC jury would not have a background in weapons, and would be very open to whatever the state's wittness tells them it is. Remember alos, that there is a negative stigma towards knives/weapons in NYC.

If the defendant has any prior criminal record, they can be charged with 3d. criminal possession of a weapon, which is a D-Felony, and carries a theoretical 1 year mandatory minimum sentence (IIRC).

Also, remember that most cases are disposed of before trial. Just under 84% of felony defendants plead out, in queens at least. The numebrs are comparable elsewhere. Presumably, the numebrs are comparable for misdemeanants.

The fact of the matter is, there is a broad spectrum of (reasons that constitute probable cause to justify a search when an individual has (negative) contact with law enforcement. This really should not be discounted. Of the cases that go to appeal, the search itself is usually the issue in question.

 

[scarysharp]

Any help in layman's terms will help, It's hard to understand the way the laws are written on many websites I have looked at.

They are written that way for a purpose. As you can see from the reply from other members, the odds are NOT in your favor. self defense is frowned upon in much on NYC, the only ones carrying guns are LEO's and criminals. People like me and you are caught right in the middle, with much of that credit going to Bloomie, the man who wants to appoint himself as mayor for another term.
I kinda feel bad for anyone living within the confines of NYC

 

[tom19176]

I have been sitting this one out for a few and mp510 has stated it best. Any locking knife that can be flicked open ( by holding the blade or handle) is a gravity knife by the way the courts in NYC have allowed it to be viewed. Any knife of any type that is carried with intent to use as a weapon is a dangerous knife that carries the same charge. In NYC there can no exposed carry and the blade must be under 4". The right for an officer to "stop and frisk" someone is some what easier for the officer to defend that you might think. There were over 500,000 250 forms( a stop and frisk form when an arrest does not result) filled out last year by the NYPD ( remember those were the ones that the officer decided to fill out the form...). If there is a robbery increase than a weapons arrest program is stepped up in that area to help show that the PD is reacting to the increase in robberies. The end of the month means you must make that needed arrest....get the idea....

 

[theonew]

Sounds to me from all this discussion that an under 4 inch fixed blade that can be carried concealed is the safest bet in the city, even though that seems counter-intuitive to me at least.

 

[tom19176]

A 4" fixed is legal unless viewed as a dirk ( which is undefined term in NYSPL), and you have a lawful purpose to carry it other than self defense. Once again circumstance of discovery of the knife will lead an officer to view it as a weapon or not.

 

[urbnspyd]

Thank you for all your replies! I don't do drugs, I am an not involved in any sort of criminal activity, but by carrying a locking folder, I guess I am "rolling the dice" any time I carry it in public. That's something I don't want to do. I am not worried about being prosecuted, but I'd rather not put myself in the postion of possibly getting arrested. I think I'll look into a small slipjoint. Spyderco makes a nice non-locking 3" blade called the UKPK, available with a "non-threatening" bright orange handle....I guess the laws are made for bad guys to get more jail time when using locking knives in crimes, but I doubt that the bad guys are home on the internet saying to themselves, We've gotta carry swiss army knives for our next crime. It seems like this law hurts the law abiding citizen more than anyone else!

 

[TOM1960]

To the poster who commented that a DA wouldn't waste his or her time on the knife carry charge: if it happens to be an election year, my bet is that he or she certainly WILL! The more prosecutions and convictions for weapons charges, the better. They must convince the sheeple that they are being "protected".

 

[gnius]

I still hold out the hope that many people, whether or not they are court officers, police officers, or prosecutors, are still... people...

It boggles my mind to think that someone could want to ruin my life as a way to marginally advance their career. It boggles my mind almost as much to think that we have come to accept such behavior as a given.

 

[tom19176]

It is more a strict "no tolerance" policy and meet the mininum standard than an attempt to advance anyone's career. The NYC Officer of today attended a school with a metal detector and was told knives are bad, so what do you expect from them? It is wrong, but it is what has been drummed into them....

 

[urbnspyd]

I wonder how many good people are walking around NYC right now, not even knowing the knife they are carrying is illegal?

 

[TOM1960]

I still hold out the hope that many people, whether or not they are court officers, police officers, or prosecutors, are still... people...

It boggles my mind to think that someone could want to ruin my life as a way to marginally advance their career. It boggles my mind almost as much to think that we have come to accept such behavior as a given.

This happens in the dreaded private sector all of the time, so why would it not happen in the public sector. Certain individuals will not hesitate for a second to throw you under the bus if it will help ingratiate them with the boss.

 

[NeonLight]

Is it possible to make a knife NYC legal by just tightening the pivot screw? I can make many of my one-handed locking knives like my BM Mini-Grips impossible to open with a flick of the wrist, and essentially make them two-handed knives. Much less convenient to use, but would this satisfy the requirement of the (unreasonable) law in NYC? No plans to ever live there, but for visits, it would be nice to know what I could get away with.

 

[urbnspyd]

As I posted in another thread on this page,(EDC in NJ & NY), The NYPD doesn't want anyone carrying knives. After looking at all the laws it appears that the only type of knife that would be considered legal, would be a small slipjoint. Legal, meaning a knife you still have to conceal, but you could pull out and use for a utility purpose in front of a LEO without problem. One part of the knife law is "if it looks like a weapon it is", so if you have a black SE tanto blade, even with a tight pivot, you may be arrested. Some people may disagree, but from my experiance, LEO's don't just frisk and pat people down w/o reason. If you are in the postion of being detained or frisked then your probably doing something you shouldn't have, or your in the wrong place at the wrong time. So, as a "good guy" do I carry illegally and hope I don't get caught? And as a good guy, there may be a small chance of being let go, possibly knifeless. Tough question. On the other hand,it could mean a night in jail. For my own peace of mind, I want my EDC to be 100% legal. A tight pivot may work on some knives, and may keep you out of trouble depending on what the knife looks like, but I think your still taking a chance. If you can grab the blade and flick the knife open, in any way, it falls into the category of a "gravity" knife. Plus a tightened pivot will not stay tight forever. Many EDC's have pinned construction (unable to tighten) or a nice large hole in the blade, that even when tight, can still be flicked open. As for me, I have a nice little slipjoint, with a bright colored handle for my EDC. Not my first choice, but if I'm in Central Park and want to pull out my knife to cut my sandwich in half, I've got nothing to worry about. For the record I don't agree with the knife laws, but I try to follow them.