NYC/NJ Law Question

Bob Nadler · Jun 13, 2001

Hi, I've been considering carrying a knife again for SD, but I'm a little confused on the laws. I live in NJ, but commute everyday to work in NYC. For the most part the laws seem the same, but I'm a little confused on these points:

From the NY Penal Law Section 265.01:

..."Gravity knife" means any knife has blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device...

From New York Case Law:

...Knife... was not a "gravity knife"... even though blade of knife could be released from its sheath by flick of the wrist; in order to lock blade of knife in open position, two additional steps were required... (1989)...

From New Jersey - Code of Criminal Justice - 2C:39-3:

...2C:39-1 h. "Gravity knife" means any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force...

Now my understanding of this is that in NY it's OK to carry a folding knife because it's not considered a "gravity knife" according to case law. In NJ a folding knife would be considered a "gravity knife" because it can be opened through the "application of centrifugal force..."

Am I understanding this correctly, or am I reading too much into this? I haven't decided which kind of folder to buy yet because I want to be sure what types are legal. Any help would be appreciated.

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-Bob

[This message has been edited by Bob Nadler (edited 06-12-2001).]

RH · Jun 12, 2001

This is one reason I like lockbacks, becuse though they may be "flickable", they are biased to stay closed unless a specific tecnique is used to centrifuge them open. Also, in other states, folders that may be capable of being flipped but are designed to be opened another way - a la thumb stud or hole, have been demed OK in case law. It's really hard to judge the case law without seeing a pic of the knife in question.

I like to keep it to 3" to be safe. Since I would bet over 75% of the knives currently sold or avilable for sale are one-hand openers, they might now fit the description of "common pocket knife".

The authority on this stuff is a lawyer named Evan Nappen. He wrote a book on NJ weapon law. Check out njguns.com fo info.

wolfkiller · Jun 13, 2001

do you know any site where they teach you to flick a lockback?

medusaoblongata · Jun 13, 2001

Originally posted by wolfkiller:
do you know any site where they teach you to flick a lockback?

If it's too stiff to just flick it open, hold the blade and flick out the handle

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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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"Is not giving a need? Is not receiving mercy?" - Thus Spoke Zarathustra
"Cutting his throat is only a momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about." - Lazarus Long
"Knowledge is not made for understanding; it is made for cutting." - Michel Foucault

wolfkiller · Jun 15, 2001

thanks medusaoblongata, your technique really works!

lifter4Him · Jun 15, 2001

Hi Bob, welcome to BF. Just make sure the knife has a good ball detent so it's not too easy to flick open. That said, sometimes it just depends on the cop in NY/NJ. As long as you're not committing a crime, they're usually cool. If one ever wants to take your knife, make sure you ask for a receipt from him. If he refuses, write down his badge number and make sure you go directly to the police station and report it to his superior if you ever want to see your knife again.

Dave

Bob Nadler · Jun 18, 2001

Thanks for the replies guys!

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-Bob

Fraser · Jul 2, 2001

A recent NJ Appellate Court decision indicated that a folding knife is not automatically considered to be a deadly weapon. It depends on how it is used. If a robber uses a folding knife to threaten a victim, well then its considered a deadly weapon. If an electrican uses a folding knife to skin some wires, then its a tool.

Fraser · Jul 2, 2001

Here is some verbiage from 1 of the 2 recent Appellate Court rulings. In one case the BG had a 4 inch folder, an "ordinary knife". In the 2nd, the BG had a 5 inch fixed blade. In both cases the court ruled that they were not deadly weapons.

"This issue was addressed in State v. Riley, 306 N.J. Super. 141 (App. Div. 1997). In that case, the defendant committed a robbery by knocking the victim to the ground and taking money from his pocket. The defendant, who was immediately detained by a passer-by and arrested when the police arrived a few minutes later, had in his pocket the victim's money and "a three-bladed pocket folding knife, the largest blade being about four inches long." Id. at 145. The court reversed defendant's conviction for first degree robbery because this was an ordinary knife, i.e., not a per se or qualified per se weapon within the definitions of N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1r and 2C:39-3e, and because there was no evidence that he used or intended to use the knife in the robbery. Id. at 146-50. The court concluded that lacking evidence of use or intended use, this ordinary knife was not a deadly weapon within the definition of N.J.S.A. 2C:11-1c. Id. at 149."

"The only differences between Riley and this case is that here the knife, apparently an ordinary kitchen knife, had a fixed, five inch blade, a small portion of which was protruding from defendant's pocket at the time of his arrest. Those differences are of no moment. As in Riley, the knife was neither held by defendant nor seen by the victim. The only evidence was that it was immediately available to defendant during the robbery. While that establishes that defendant was
armed, State v. Merritt, 247 N.J. Super. 425, 429-30 (App. Div.), certif. denied, 126 N.J. 336 (1991), it is not sufficient evidence that the weapon was a "deadly weapon" as defined by N.J.S.A. 2C:11-1c. Therefore, the motion to
dismiss the first-degree robbery charge should have been granted."

Fraser · Jul 2, 2001

Finally, the Sheriff of Somerset County improperly confiscated and disposed of knives that people visiting the court house (jurors or witnesses for instance) had in their possession. A complaint was filed and a trial was held in Somerset County Superior Court . The Sheriff was ORDERED to stop this practice, and to reimburse those whose knives he had disposed of.