O1 work well for a cleaver?

[TLR]

O1 work well for a smaller cleaver or should I be looking at something else?

If O1 what hardness would you shoot for?

 

[javand]

Almost any knife appropriate steel, will work well, for almost any type of edged tool, if you adjust your techniques for the caveats of the design.


No need to over complicate things.

 

[james terrio]

Does it need to be stain-resistant? If so, O1 is a very bad choice.

Does it "only" need to be tough, take a very crisp edge easily and hold it well? Then O1 with pro-level HT is an excellent choice!

If you do not have access to pro-level HT, and do not require stain-resistance, use an even simpler alloy like 1080/80CRV2/1084. They will give similar high levels of performance, but they are easier to get close-to-optimum HT with basic equipment.

Full disclosure: I have not yet made a cleaver, so take this with a grain of salt: if it is meant to chop bone, I would use thick stock (1/4" or so?), I would not bother putting a very acute bevel grind on it, and I would leave the edge much thicker/sharpen it less-acutely than a hunter or slicer. I would still shoot for 58-60Rc overall hardness simply to increase time between re-sharps... I think the extra steel behind the edge will support it. Err on the side of heavy/thick when making it... it's easy to grind off more steel to make it cut better. Not so easy to put steel back on if it's too thin/weak

Stacy and several others around here have experience with Western and Japanese-style cleavers, hopefully they will chime in with more details.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

James pretty much nailed it.

There care two "cleaver" types. The Western break down cleaver, and the Eastern vegetable and utility cleaver (AKA - Chinese cleaver or chopper). They are very different.

Western:
Heavy build with lots of spine weight for inertia. Large wide blade for mass. Large ergonomic handle for a firm grip. Used to break down large pieces of protein and sever bones. 1/4" to 3/8" at the spine is not uncommon on larger cleavers. The fairly long and heavy blade and long handle all add to the moment of force needed to break down bone and thick meats.
The bevel is often just the last third of the blade in a convex grind with a very "blunt" and thick final edge. The grind angle for the edge is high, 25-35° per side. There is a slight belly to the blade edge to aid in the cutting. The commonly seen up-sweeping spine is to allow for more steel toward the front and increase impact toward the tip in powerful chops.
The blades are normally 5-8" long at the edge and 3-5" high to the spine. They need to be full tang for strength and weight. Handles need to be tough, and well riveted or bolted. Bolsters are common for strength and handle protection. Smaller cleavers are made for cubing meat, but other knife types are as good or better for that. The large hole in the upper end corner of the blade is traditional, but not needed. It is a hold-over from the days when the butchers large tools were hung from wooden pegs on a rack.

Eastern or Chinese:
These are vegetable and mincing knives, not what we call cleavers. The shape is the only similarity. They are thin, usually 1/8" max, with 1/16" being common. Light ands easy to manipulate is what is desired. The edge is straight as possible, and the edge angle is about what you would put on any utility kitchen knife - 15°-20° per side. The Japanese nikiri is a smaller one of these types. Handles are usually straight to allow various grip techniques. A wa handle or similar simple shape is good. Full tang or stick tang is fine.
The blades range from 3" to 10" in length, and are normally not tall. 1" to 3" is about the range from edge to spine. The main use for these knives is cutting large amounts of whole vegetables up for stir frying and soup. They double as a "food scoop" pick up tool for removing the food from the cutting board and placing in woks, pots, and storage bins.





Since I mentioned a food scoop, I want to suggest that every knife maker make some. It is about the simplest and most appreciated gift you can give a cook. They also sell well. A food scoop is a non-sharp tool to pick up food after cutting or chopping. It has a simple square-ish handle across the entire spine. This is the only "knife" that should have BHS.

Get .060" simple stainless steel in 3-4" width and cut roughly square pieces. It is best to make a batch at a time. The steel is dirt cheap, so making a dozen or so is good. 440 or AEB-L is fine. $50 of AEB-L will make a dozen 4X4" scoops. I bet Aldo would shear it into 4X4" pieces for you. You can make the size as you wish, depending on what the user chops. If you have a big foodie on you gift list, make a set of a 4X4" and a 6X4" scoop.
Grind an non sharp edge at 45° per side. Give it a run across a buffing wheel to remove any sharpness or burr. The edge needs to be absolutely straight. Check and sand on a granite block to make sure.
Drill three or four 3/16" holes along the spine, about 3/8" in from the edge. HT the blade to a Rc of mid 50s. Even though these aren't cutting tools, HT is important, as stainless steel isn't stainless until HTed.
Use a Scotch-brite belt to finish with a matte surface.
Make up simple 4X3/4X3/8" handle strips from attractive wood or canvas Micarta. Round off the edges and pre-sand the front side where it will sit on the blade. Glue and pin the handle strips on and lightly round the top even with the spine to make a simple grip ( Tip - tape up the blade when doing the handle to avoid unwanted marks). Cost is very low, but appreciation is high. Black and tan canvas Micarta and matching or contrasting phenolic pins work extremely well for these. You can use white Micarta, but finishing is harder. Pieces of stabilized wood too small for a knife can make a really nice handle.
Maybe I'll do a WIP on one of these soon.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

James pretty much nailed it.

There are two "cleaver" types. The Western break down cleaver, and the Eastern vegetable and utility cleaver (AKA - Chinese cleaver or chopper). They are very different.

Western:
Heavy build with lots of spine weight for inertia. Large wide blade for mass. Large ergonomic handle for a firm grip. Used to break down large pieces of protein and sever bones. 1/4" to 3/8" at the spine is not uncommon on larger cleavers. The fairly long and heavy blade and long handle all add to the moment of force needed to break down bone and thick meats.
The bevel is often just the last third of the blade in a convex grind with a very "blunt" and thick final edge. The grind angle for the edge is high, 25-35° per side. There is a slight belly to the blade edge to aid in the cutting. The commonly seen up-sweeping spine is to allow for more steel toward the front and increase impact toward the tip in powerful chops.
The blades are normally 5-8" long at the edge and 3-5" high to the spine. They need to be full tang for strength and weight. Handles need to be tough, and well riveted or bolted. Bolsters are common for strength and handle protection. Smaller cleavers are made for cubing meat, but other knife types are as good or better for that. The large hole in the upper end corner of the blade is traditional, but not needed. It is a hold-over from the days when the butcher's large tools were hung from wooden pegs on a rack.

Eastern or Chinese:
These are vegetable and mincing knives, not what we call cleavers. The shape is the only similarity. They are thin, usually 1/8" max, with 1/16" being common. Light and easy to manipulate is what is desired. The edge is straight as possible, and the edge angle is about what you would put on any utility kitchen knife - 15°-20° per side. The Japanese nikiri is a smaller one of these types. Handles are usually straight to allow various grip techniques. A wa handle or similar simple shape is good. Full tang or stick tang is fine.
The blades range from 3" to 10" in length, and are normally not tall. 1" to 3" is about the range from edge to spine. The main use for these knives is cutting large amounts of whole vegetables up for stir frying and soup. They double as a "food scoop" pick up tool for removing the food from the cutting board and placing in woks, pots, and storage bins.





Since I mentioned a food scoop, I want to suggest that every knife maker make some. It is about the simplest and most appreciated gift you can give a cook. They also sell well. A food scoop is a non-sharp tool to pick up food after cutting or chopping. It has a simple square-ish handle across the entire spine. This is the only "knife" that should have BHS.

Get .060" simple stainless steel in 3-4" width and cut roughly square pieces. It is best to make a batch at a time. The steel is dirt cheap, so making a dozen or so is good. 440 or AEB-L is fine. $50 of AEB-L will make a dozen 4X4" scoops. I bet Aldo would shear it into 4X4" pieces for you. You can make the size as you wish, depending on what the user chops. If you have a big foodie on your gift list, make a set of a 4X4" and a 6X4" scoop.
Grind a non sharp edge at 45° per side. Give it a run across a buffing wheel to remove any sharpness or burr. The edge needs to be absolutely straight. Check and sand on a granite block to make sure.
Drill three or four 3/16" holes along the spine, about 3/8" in from the edge. HT the blade to a Rc of mid 50s. Even though these aren't cutting tools, HT is important, as stainless steel isn't stainless until HTed.
Use a Scotch-brite belt to finish with a matte surface.
Make up simple 4X3/4X3/8" handle strips from attractive wood or canvas Micarta. Round off the edges and pre-sand the front side where it will sit on the blade. Glue and pin the handle strips on and lightly round the top even with the spine to make a simple grip ( Tip - tape up the blade when doing the handle to avoid unwanted marks). Cost is very low, but appreciation is high. Black and tan canvas Micarta and matching or contrasting phenolic pins work extremely well for these. You can use white Micarta, but finishing is harder. Pieces of stabilized wood too small for a knife can make a really nice handle.
Maybe I'll do a WIP on one of these soon.

 

[james terrio]

Since I mentioned a food scoop, I want to suggest that every knife maker make some. It is about the simplest and most appreciated gift you can give a cook. They also sell well. A food scoop is a non-sharp tool to pick up food after cutting or chopping. It has a simple square-ish handle across the entire spine. This is the only "knife" that should have BHS.

BHS?

 

[TLR]

Thank you both for the help!

This will be a western style cleaver though a little less length than normal. I was thinking 0.25". Biggest reason I was thinking through O1 was because I have a few blanks that have been hanging around for a couple of years that I could put together as a batch to send out for heat treating.

So next question is should this be a double sided grind or a chisel grind. I have seen both in looking at examples. Also with using O1 what hardness should I be shooting for?

Stacy, I'm in the same boat. I'm not sure what BHS stands for.

Thanks again.

 

[TLR]

I think I just got it. Blocky Handle Syndrome?

 

[james terrio]

So next question is should this be a double sided grind or a chisel grind.

Again, I have not yet made a cleaver, so take this with a large grain of salt. I'm trying to learn with you

A chisel grind makes a lot of sense to me, for a heavy chopping knife. The only real disadvantage I see is if you grind it for a right-handed person, and a left-handed person tries to use it... that might be awkward.

Also with using O1 what hardness should I be shooting for?

I see no reason to temper it below 58Rc, and my instinct is to go for 60Rc... perhaps even a bit higher? Again, I'll defer to Stacy and others who have actual experience with these type blades.

 

[TLR]

Thanks again James!

Again, I have not yet made a cleaver, so take this with a large grain of salt. I'm trying to learn with you

A chisel grind makes a lot of sense to me, for a heavy chopping knife. The only real disadvantage I see is if you grind it for a right-handed person, and a left-handed person tries to use it... that might be awkward.



I see no reason to temper it below 58Rc, and my instinct is to go for 60Rc... perhaps even a bit higher? Again, I'll defer to Stacy and others who have actual experience with these type blades.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Rc 60 would be a good area for an O-1 chopping blade.

Double sided grind, as with an ordinary knife blade. A single side grind (chisel) would be a poor choice. Have you ever seen a single bevel axe?

If you look at Deba knives, you will see that they are single bevel for veggies and fish, until the purpose gets into heavier breakdown tasks of poultry and red meats ... then the make them double bevel.

 

[TLR]

Thank you once again!

Rc 60 would be a good area for an O-1 chopping blade.

Double sided grind, as with an ordinary knife blade. A single side grind (chisel) would be a poor choice. Have you ever seen a single bevel axe?

If you look Deba knives, you will see that they are single bevel for veggies and fish, until the purpose gets into heavier breakdown tasks of poultry and red meats ... then the make them double bevel.

 

[james terrio]

Double sided grind, as with an ordinary knife blade. A single side grind (chisel) would be a poor choice. Have you ever seen a single bevel axe?

If you look at Deba knives, you will see that they are single bevel for veggies and fish, until the purpose gets into heavier breakdown tasks of poultry and red meats ... then the make them double bevel.

That makes sense. Very acute, possibly "handed" single bevels for very fine work, less acute "centered" double bevels for heavier work.

 

[Lieblad]

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