Of damascus and cutting with it

Boink

Boink

Joined
Jun 6, 2002
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I got my first dress folder that has a damascus blade. Humorously talking with the dealer, I mentioned about cutting carpet with it, to which the dealer said, “you’re not going to cut with that knife, right?” - in a relatively serious tone.

Yes, it’s a relatively high-dollar knife and one that will see some carry time. (already thinking about “dressing up” more in order to support this) - but what about simple cutting chores? How about cellophane wrapper of crackers? How about cutting a cigar or two?

Is cutting with a high-dollar damascus blade taboo?
 
Damascus cuts just as well as other steels, provided it's done and heat treated right. I think the dealer was referring to the risk of putting damaging the appearance of the blade. look at all the for-sale knives where the sellers emphasize "never used, never sharpened".

JD
 
Some damascus is made to be high performance and some isn't. There is damascus that is made only to look good. Even this damascus will cut cellophane or cigars, but I wouldn't use for anything a whole lot tougher. The more pure nickel that was used to make the damascus the less likely that the blade was intended to be used, but there are many high dollar damascus blades that are intended to be used.
 
Totally forgot about that - yeah, damascus with pure Ni is more akin to mokume than damascus. Ni doesn't harden and prevents the diffusion of steel and carbon so I personally wouldn't care for some on a knife, outside of the fittings.
 
Boink,

Maybe if you give us some more info about the damascus type that is used, whether the knife is etched (with ferric chloride or acid) or blued, etc. That would help in providing advise.

Check out the new Knives Illustrated. There is an article in there about using high dollar knives.
 
Thanks for the thoughts and ideas, all.

This one has Jerry Rados ladder pattern damascus. There was no deeper description on the dealer's site as regards the damascus, but I can probably get more information from the knife maker. Does the damascus maker's name give immediate clues as to the content of the material?
 
Well, it is a start.

I have recently seen and handled two pieces by Nate Clark that were collaborations with Mr. Rados (actually at OKCA). Mr. Rados designed a specific bar of steel to fit each piece. In this case, I am referring to a symetrical turkish design associated with a particular blade pattern. The actual figuring in the steel was layed out to match the actual shape of the blade.

Most of the patterns that I have seen are turkish in nature and carbon damascus. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I have not seen stainless from Jerry Rados. Not that I am making any generalization of Mr. Rados damascus. But, I am sure as far as usability goes, the heat treatment is a big determining factor. The blades that were on these pieces seemed to be pretty indestructable.

Does this at all resemble the steel on the knife in question??
 
I have an email out to the knife maker as to the formula. But what I now remember learning is that it is not a stainless damascus. This is a steel that requires care and waxing to keep it nice.

Edited to add:

A recent email from the knife maker revealed this:

"The damascus blade, being laminated
with hundreds of thin layers, will have microscopic serration's on the cutting
edge. You may be used to having a polished edge on a plain steel blade. The
slight trade off will be that the damascus blade will continue to cut even when
the edge is slightly dull, but in a sawing action. I like to use the example of
your serrated kitchen knives, when they all get dull, a serrated knife will
still slice a tomato, but in a slicing, or sawing, motion."
 
I have a piece with a Rados damascus "ladder pattern" that is used as a "cutter". It's a Gedraitis piece. It's well heat treated and hold an edge, but doesn't take a very fine edge. I believe this to be more due to the grind and blade thickness, as opposed to the steel. As Keith noted some is really just for looks, but I doubt that would be the case with Rados steel. If it's blued or seriously etched, some of that WILL wear off under use. If not, most "patinas" can be restored with a combination of Windex and Lemon juice or one or the other. Ask the maker BEFORE experimenting.
 
Jerry's steel is awesome! He makes the best turkish out there. A mosaic damascus is made with powered steel and is not as strong as a twist or folded damascus.

Hey Bob,
Jerry insists that his turkish blades are forged to shape so the star pattern follows the blade shape up to the point and dosen't just fall off the edge.
 
I have a Nealy 5" Aikuchi in his Damascus Clad steel. It always gets comments, oohs and ahs from knife people and words not worth mentioning from sheeple, when I pull it out to cut something. It is one of my EDC and I wouldn't hesitate to cut with it.

Perhaps there is a difference between damascus steel and damascus clad as Bud uses - I don't know. Someone on the forum care to enlighten me?

Simon:D
 
Originally posted by Boink
"The damascus blade, being laminated with hundreds of thin layers, will have microscopic serration's on the cutting edge. ..."
Click to expand...

That's a common claim, and it's not clear it's true. ABS MS Howard Clark has demonstrated that the carbon content of damascus evens out extremely rapidly across layers. However, twist damascus is often done without any fold, so I suppose the above could be true.

Mr. Rados is a well known maker of damascus, and he specializes in twist.
 
George Werth makes damascus of almost any pattern. He generally uses a mix of 5160 and pure nickel, so the cutting and edge holding ability is not going to be optimum. As mentioned before, pure nickel will not harden and is only used for pattern contrast.
 
About Ni:
This means that a damascus blade forged from two different carbon steels without using any Ni is meant for cutting???
 
Most of the performance oriented blades are composed of a mix of all high carbon tool steels. One of these steels will contain a little nickel, and that will give you the shiny layers and contrast. L6 and 15N20 saw steels are commonly used due to their nickel content.
 
Using pure nickel in damascus is different from using a nickel-bearing steel. The latter is perfectly OK, the former (pure nickel) cannot be as good as steel.
 
Hey Striper -- I noitce you use a lot of Peter Martin dmascus in your bolsters. I have one of his smaller knives with a damascus blade -- do you know if he makes different types of damascus for use in his blades ? I doubt this knife will see any serious use, but I am curious. It is scalpel-like sharp, just don't know how sturdy the edge would be.
MtMike
 
I reckon that if its a knife, then it should be able to cut like any knife. In my humble opinion, I think that if a damascus knife should primarily and firstly be able to cut and cut well, and whether or not it will be used for cutting should be up to the buyer, not the maker. I thing that the main issues about using damascus is :-

1) the cost in the first place, reflective of the effort gone into creating what can be described as metallurgic artistry.
2) that today's damascus would not likely be much better than any other "today's " straight steels and the cosmetic reasons for using damascus in a piece could be damaged through use.

I liken using damascus to using the Mona Lisa as a table mat. It would do, but would you do that ?

Bottom line, its up to you.

Don't forget stainless Damasteel. Its a combination of powdered RWL-34 (identical to ATS-34) and 12C27 which is similar to 440B. HT is the same as ATS-34, and takes the same cryo and triple temper for an awesome using blade. It may be not necessarily better cutting than a straight RWL-34 knife, but hey, it looks fantastic and it also cuts well. That MUST be "better" somehow ...

Cheers. Jason.
 
Originally posted by Joss
That's a common claim, and it's not clear it's true. ABS MS Howard Clark has demonstrated that the carbon content of damascus evens out extremely rapidly across layers. However, twist damascus is often done without any fold, so I suppose the above could be true.

Mr. Rados is a well known maker of damascus, and he specializes in twist.
Click to expand...
.....Joss, we must always remember there is more to steel than carbon content. When two steels of the same carbon content with very different alloying elements are welded up they do not become homogenous. Because two steels are welded together in a blade does not mean they will not react exactly alike to quenching in the same medium at the same instant. L6 and 1084 have very close carbon contents but have completely diffenent characteristics upon hardening. 15N20 and 1070 are the same in carbon content yet are very different birds in a blade. When 1084/15N20 is welded up in a blade with a coarse pattern such as 90 layers you can feel the drill bit cut much differently in the 15N20 layers when drilling the tang. Alloying of steel is what makes the major differences in steels. As far as I know, chrome, nickle, etc. do not migrate. This is a factor often overlooked in pattern-welded blades. It is not as simple as shiny layers, dark layers, carbon content the same. If more people had the opportunities to cut and test pattern-welded blades it would help end some of the general misconceptions. These edge serrations are very subtle and not there when the blade is fresly sharpened. But in my experiance as the edge wears during use some laminates wear down at a different rate than others. As I said it is a very subtle difference but it is something that you can feel as you cut.I think the old thought that finer patterns cut better may be based on this experiance. Howard Clark knows steel and heat-treating. Why do you think he uses L6 in his bainite katanas? It don't act like 1070. I'll get off my box now. mike
 
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