Off-Topic...Deer rifle recommendation

F

fearn

Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
124
Hi All,

Here's a confession. I'm not a hunter, and the last person to hunt in my family was my late grandfather. However, I'd like to try deer hunting here on Catalina. Reason is, we've got (introduced) mule deer here on the island, and the only way we can control the deer population is recreational hunting. We also don't have a big enough hunter population on the island to fill the deer tag allocation we got from the state. Aside from recruiting more hunters to come here this fall (see below), a bunch of us conservation types are going to take the hunter ed class and try our hands. It's a lot better than watching the deer eat everything and starve.

Here's the question: what is your recommendation for a good deer rifle?

The landscape is basically semi-desert and steep-sided canyons. The deer are pretty wary, so I'll probably be shooting at fairly long distance, and I'll need a rugged, accurate rifle. I'll also have to tote said rifle up and out of the canyons (hopefully along with a deer carcass), so a lighter rifle would be better.

If you're at all interested, there will be guided deer hunts on Catalina this fall, through Wildlife West. And yes, feel free to bring your khukuris. I certainly won't complain, because you'll probably need them to clean your trophies. :D:D:D

Looking forward to your opinions,

F
 
I have few choices that I like, first being Marlin 1894 in .44 mag, for brush, 30-50 yard snap shots when hunting lower canyons and hillsides. Next Winchester 1894 30-30 mid range canyons shots out to 125 yards and finally a Winchester 1895 30-06 for shots out to 300 yards . I lke lever actions. The .270 is a good round very popular as well, check out the Ruger line you should be able find something to your liking. Good hunting!!
 
More or less it depends on what you are comfortable shooting. You cannot humanely kill what you cannot reliably hit. Recoil will be a serious factor for new shooters. Too much and you will develop a flinch that will never go away.
A smaller bore rifle like a .243 will suit new shooters pretty well. It is about as small as I would go and the ammo is fairly popular (Walmart carries it here).

I really love my 30-06, but I have been shooting since I was a kid. It does have quite a bit of kick and would scare the poo if I gave it to someone who didn't know what they were getting into. If I am not wearing a recoil pad after 10 rounds through my light 30-06 I am done for the day.

Practice, practice, practice. Remember that 90% of all deer are killed within 100 yards. But due to you being in a desert canyon you need to pick your shots. If the shot is to far away, or at a bad angle, don't take it. If you chance it and have to track a wounded animal cause you didn't kill it cleanly, you will feel bad.

There will be alot of opinions out there. Do your homework and have fun.
 
fearn said:
Hi All,

Here's a confession. I'm not a hunter, and the last person to hunt in my family was my late grandfather. However, I'd like to try deer hunting here on Catalina. Reason is, we've got (introduced) mule deer here on the island, and the only way we can control the deer population is recreational hunting. We also don't have a big enough hunter population on the island to fill the deer tag allocation we got from the state. Aside from recruiting more hunters to come here this fall (see below), a bunch of us conservation types are going to take the hunter ed class and try our hands. It's a lot better than watching the deer eat everything and starve.

Here's the question: what is your recommendation for a good deer rifle?

The landscape is basically semi-desert and steep-sided canyons. The deer are pretty wary, so I'll probably be shooting at fairly long distance, and I'll need a rugged, accurate rifle. I'll also have to tote said rifle up and out of the canyons (hopefully along with a deer carcass), so a lighter rifle would be better.

If you're at all interested, there will be guided deer hunts on Catalina this fall, through Wildlife West. And yes, feel free to bring your khukuris. I certainly won't complain, because you'll probably need them to clean your trophies. :D:D:D

Looking forward to your opinions,

F
Click to expand...
Sounds like a neat opportunity to expand your outdoor interests.

What they said. Thirty-thirty is light rifle, good caliber, capable out to about 200 yards, but with a drop at that distance of 7.5 inches or so. Thus, you'd be aiming that high at a target you determined to be 200 yards away.

But, as a "not a hunter," as you said, you may well be wrong in the distances at which you would have shots. Since you have not yet had the experience, might be worth your while to discuss at length the kind of shots you WILL experience. As stated, most deer are shot at under 100 yards. The hunter is at the site BEFORE the deer, so waiting for the right shot is a matter a patience more often than taking a longer-range shot.

Two forty-three, and .270 shoot much flatter, and have easily as much stopping power as the 30-30, but really are presented in a much different format. A bolt action versus a lever action becomes a point of personal preference. Neither one is good nor bad, but different. I didn't check, but I doubt if there is even a two inch difference in the point of aim/point of impact between 100 and 200 yards for those two calibers.

Should be an exciting time. Don't spend too much on equipment. One hundred year old military surplus rifles are just as effective as brand-new state of the art works of gun manufacturers. It is easy to become fixated on gear and forget the nut behind the rifle. :)

Have fun. Be safe.




Kis
enjoy every sandwich
 
If I might suggest a Swedish Mauser? Absolutely love mine. Absolutely. I haven't priced them lately, I've had mine for about 10 years.

I've put a lot of lead downfield and feel better and better with every use. Large calibers were a big thing to me. Experience showed me that it was too expensive in lots of ways. My shoulder was a bit pinched after a few hours behind heavy ft lbs. I'm the type of guy who needs to put some time in to be truly comfortable with a particular piece. I'm not a natural.

I know a fella who insists on the biggest,baddest, hardest hitting round on the range. He's 5'4" and maybe 130 lbs. He's broken his clavicle 2xs. Magnums are not his friends.

I was also the type of guy who got all happy with spraying lead. Now, If I can put a few rounds where I want, my shoulder, pocketbook and pride feel better. I am not saying that I am any great shakes in the accuracy dept. I've seen guys that eat my lunch in their sleep. Using large calibers BTW.
I'm 5'11" and 210 lbs. A 6'4" friend weighing in at 250 puts me to shame. Hell, one guy I know is smaller and lighter than me and uses his 06. He whips us both.

Dave and Kis, I agree on the .243. The 6.5 feels very similar to me. The 30-06 is just too much for me on a consistent basis. Perceived recoil and weight are major factors. Honestly, I find myself flinching a bit after a while. This may kill my tough guy self image, but I would rather be accurate than macho.

I never seem to be in a good spot when I bag something. Camp is ALWAYS a few miles away. The extra weight of my Model 17 Win. as I carry dead weight is the excuse I use when I bring the Swede. All the guys laugh when I pull it out. What it boils down to is what you're most comfortable with.

Just my .02

Roger
 
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the advice so far, and please keep it coming.

One thing I should have put in the original post: we're limited to non-lead ammo on the island. Does this change your advice on caliber and gun?

F
 
go for the Mini-Samson. Park it at the edge of the canyon, pop open a brewski and wait for the targeting system to pick out the perfect deer for you.

rcws.jpg


Afterwards, you can retrieve whats left of the carcase with this lil beauty.

WhaleHarpGun1.jpg
 
fearn said:
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the advice so far, and please keep it coming.

One thing I should have put in the original post: we're limited to non-lead ammo on the island. Does this change your advice on caliber and gun?

F
Click to expand...

Non-lead?

Bow & arrow... seriously. Every high-power rifle shoots lead. Shotguns have non-lead shot; dunno about buckshot. :confused: Beanbag round to the deer's head?


Mike
 
Figured that there HAD to be alternatives, Googled a bit, found this thread in a forum and followed a link to Sportsman's Guide site, found some calibers listed there. A bit more expensive, but ammo has been going up, and good news (sort of) you don't have a store of now-obsolete ammo to mourn. :)

Here's thread:
http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=172055

Here's Sportsman's Guide link:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=184264

Copper being almost a malleable as lead, should not drastically limit your caliber choices. If .270 is available, then .243 will be. Don't see a problem with copper 30-30, either.

Have fun. Talk with folks who hunt. Call some sporting good stores. Visit them. They know...because they have to.

(Edit: Leave your checkbook and credit cards at home when you visit sporting goods stores. Look, take notes, ask questions, and come back here or to other forums and ask about values and utility. Don't impulse buy. :)



Kis
 
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Lead free ammo SHOULD NOT be a problem. With the high quality bullets that are coming out today the all copper solution is becoming more and more popular.

That being said, all copper ammo is a bit more pricy than the standard lead stuff. You should be able to practice on the range with some standard ammo to learn how to shoot, and learn the ins and outs of your rifle. Then clean it well and sight it in with the all all copper ammo that you will be hunting with and leave it.

Also, be sure you dont put your rifle away without cleaning it. Being on a island (moist and salty) I am sure I am preaching to the chior, but I really dont want to read another thread where someone dissolves their rifle in a salt mist hunting near ocean side cliffs. You might even want to look into a Stainless steel Ruger (although they are kinda ugly). It could save you some worry during the off season. I dont know if someone makes a SS rifle with a neat coating, but they should. ;)
 
I also live in California and am dealing with the no lead thing. Barnes makes .243 bullets in all copper, so availability is not an issue. However, there is a big difference in how an all copper bullet and and a copper cup/lead core bullet behaves. The Barnes will penetrate to all get out, and will not come apart, retaining all of its weight. This is good for off angle shots and shots that hit bone. However, it isn't so great on lung shots, especially in the smaller calibers. My friends are seeing that many of the game animals are not DRT (Dead Right There) on these shots. Lead core bullets are more disruptive to these soft tissues creating more immediate shock. The lung shot deer with the Barnes still go down, its just that alot of them are running quite a bit further requiring some possible tracking.

Action types: I usually use my bolt actions, and am proficient with it and getting a quick follow up shot. However, many find it easier to work a levergun with out having to dismount from the shoulder. I like them both. Autos and pumps are ok, but you have less selection.

Caliber: 30-30 levergun is great to 150 yards, 200 is max. Recoil is not bad, especially in the Marlin 336 which is a little heavier than the Winchester 94 (get one of each, I did ;~)). Also it is easy to scope the Marlin ~ a low power variable such as 1-4X works great.
In a bolt gun I use a 30-06 or .308 because that is what I have. If I were to buy a bolt rifle now, and it was only for deer and hogs, I would get a 7mm-08. Recoil is reasonable and the caliber is plenty powerful and flat shooting.

The current rage is lighter and lighter weight rifles. This is good and bad: light guns are easy to carry, and where I hunt we do a lot of walking and climbing. But I find a muzzle light rifle hard to hold steady, especially after humping up and down the mountains. Also, a light rifle will recoil harder, the whole "equal and opposite reaction, and conservation of energy" thing. I suggest getting a good recoil pad such as a Limbsaver or Pachmayer Decelerator so that shooting is comfortable, and it will help prevent developing a flinch.

In parting, buy the best you can afford (especially scopes and mounts). I would suggest shooting as many different rifles in different calibers as possible. This will give you a good idea of what rifle fits you well (very important) and how much recoil is tolerable to you.

Have fun, be safe, hope you are successful!
 
Out here, (Concord, CA) we have a couple of local ranges, rifle & pistol and some shotgun. It's interesting to go and just watch what folks are doing. You can figure out pretty quickly what might work for you by watching others.

The suggestion of the Swedish Mauser has merit - I bought an old Finnish rifle, and I can't shoot the thing enough. I love it; cheap to buy & cheap to shoot, so you can practice a lot.

I personally use a Winchester Model 94, in .32 Special (a small step up from .30-30). For the ranges you're talking about, I'd look at .243/.260/7mm/.308 type cartridge chamberings. They're all based on the .308 Winchester cartridge; a .260 Remington wouldn't be too much different from that Swedish Mauser mentioned above.

If you don't have a .22 rimfire yet, you should get one - in a standard-size rifle, some are made pretty small for younger people. You can practice sight picture & trigger squeeze really cheap. Plus it's fun to just plink with.

Those are my thoughts. Good luck!

EDITED TO ADD: ask lots of questions. You'll hear terms like MOA (minute-of-angle - when using a scope); length of pull (stock length); trajectory; Eye relief (another term when using a scope); hopefully the safety course will cover those things, but maybe not.

thx - cpr
 
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For the distance it sounds like you will be shooting, consider the .308

For toting around the mountains, well, get a couple of 10lb hand weights and work out a couple months before hand, because any quality rifle is going to weigh at least 7lb.

If you plan on doing this ongoing, don't skimp on inexpensive mil surplus. You did mention long range.

Consider doing this right the first time. Meaning, so many have bought as little to start with as they thought they could stand, only to not be satisfied and then have to upgrade... Thus potentially spending more than they would have if they had of gone for quality in the first place.

Rifles I have that out of the box, with scopes mounted that group 3shots in a half dollar are a Browning Stainless A-Bolt .270 w/composite stock (less than 50cnt piece), Ruger 77 .308, Winchester 88 lever .308, and a Savage99 lever .308. Military surplus rifles are not known for this kind of accuracy. Sure some will, but usually takes a lot of work/modification.

We have our own hunting property and over the years, we have observed and frequently talked about the .308's doing more terminal damage than any other caliber that we shoot, to include, '06, 270, and the .243.

Whatever you decide on, the whole trick to this is practice until you have confidence that when the rifle goes off, the bullet is going to hit what you are aiming at.

just my 2 centavos worth...
 
praise to the .270 and .308.

Anything smaller where your at seems almost point less.

I dont think a relatively new shooter could hit the broad side of a barn at 200+ with a 30-30 or .44 mag and if you did the ft lbs of energy would be below 100:thumbdn:


The .243 maybe, but I hate to count on it for that range with a Buck of lifetime. Especially after all the work to get there.

just my .02
 
i favour the larger calibers myself,

3in. mountain howitzer deer hunt

if you insist on rifling, the .58 springfield rifled musket with handcast minie balls does great at woods ranges. (i used a .243 win (or a .300 winmag* up in Kodiak) for the more open areas) with the heaviest bullet weight avail. & lotsa practice at different ranges.

*- justincase of bearlike objects
 
Seriously, just about any medium bore (6mm - .338) is fine for deer.

IMO if rust is a problem, I'd get a Savage 16/116 in .308/.30-06. If rust isn't a problem then a Savage 10/110 in .308/.30-06.

The reason for a Savage is they are extremely accurate out of the box, they are relatively cheap, and the synthetic stock ones are pretty light (under 7 pounds).

Reson for the cartridge choices is that you said you might have to take somewhat far shots. the 30 caliber rounds probably have the most choices in projectiles out there. For loaded ammo, the .30-06 has more variety than the .308, for handloaders, there's little difference between the two. Also, I believe that there are offerings with the Barnes all copper bullets in the medium weight (165-169 grain), which perform better at longer ranges.

Some complain about the recoil of the .30-06, but the first rifle I ever fired was an -06 and I didn't see what the fuss was about.
 
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