Off Topic: Linguistics and historians can you help? (Beoram and Ferrous Wheel)

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May 30, 2002
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Can you tell me something about the content of these links?

If I am not misunderstanding they conflict eachother?

http://home9.swipnet.se/~w-93783/index.html

http://www.antalya-ws.com/futhark/

It is possible that the claims of these links are old news but I was unaware of this.

Are any of these links "true" or considered serious theories?

I don't know if you can help but I would appreciate any comment. I found these links at a heathen forum where some people discuss this but it is all too thick wood for me.
 
I wanted to help, but reading them runed my vision.:D






(I'm calling my sponsor now)

Kis
:rolleyes:
 
Hello Eik,
I am not a really expert concerning those things (especially not concerning the futhark) - but I would say: Yes the statements are in conflict as "semitic" and "turc" are two very different things. It is hard to explain, how semitic elements should reach Scandinavia - a possible contact with turc speaking folks seems more probably.

If you know someting of the Finnish language you know that it belongs to the finno-ugric language-family - as the Turcish and the Hungarian languages. Finland is not so far away from the Runes mentioned as the next semitic-speaking people is.

Possible contact could be the Huns, they spoke old-altaic, the ancestor of turcish and some scientists say they came from the same Asian plains as the turcs. Today we do not know how far to the north and east the reign of the Huns reached (in the years ca. 380-453)- but the maps I have show they did not reach Denmark but they reached the Baltic Sea on territory which is now Germany, Poland and the Baltic States.

However, there is a point that will confict this theory:
The Huns did not write down anything (no evidence in archeologic material or ancient writings - the greek main author is Priscus of Panion)

but the Huns lived for 70 years together with the Ostrogoths (Even the Name "Attila" is Gothic and means "Little Father" - so there is possible bilingual contact with Goths who could write.

However, this is kind of my own theory - I`m just a teacher and during my time at university I specialized on the Huns and the Roman reactions to their invasions in late antiquity...

So hopefully you will find some really experts.

Andreas
 
Hi Eikerværing

Yes, the two pages are in conflict with one another - or so it seems to me for the simple reason that they suggest completely different interpretations, e.g. the 'Turkish' article interprets the Blekinge stone as
'he (who was) brave (and) lived through many hardships (of) army, committed not flight (or did not desert his post of duty) lies herein...'
and the 'Semitic' article as 'This pot of my want and the declined child:
'Desire! And the child becomes agile. Desire! And the child became agile
and rose (to), that which is overflowing of fulness, my fissure of fulness.'

I would be rather sceptical of both, but I find the 'Semitic' article particularly suspicious - why would there be 'Semitic' writing on Rune Stones in Scandinavia?? No Semitic people ventured into this area at this early date (or even at later dates in any significant number that I know of) and I don't know why Scandinavians would have been carving Semitic mysticism. This seems to me to be like the pages of people who claim that Sumerian and Basque are related, or that Sumerian proves the existence of space aliens in early Mesopotamia! Though I could be not understanding something and doing this author a diservice, I dunno.

The 'Turkish' article is perhaps plausible - but not necessarily particularly interesting. What this is to say is that all alphabets appear to ultimately be related. The Roman alphabet and Cyrrilic alphabets come from the Greek, which in turn comes from the Phoenecian, apparently a south Semitic development. But in fact all alphabets appear to descend from some Semitic invention, including the various Indian scripts, including Devanagari used for writing Hindi & Nepali [see, here's the 'khukuri' thread to the posting ;)], even those used to write non-IndoAryan languages such as Telugu or Tamil. Interestingly the oldest deciphered alphabet of India, Brahmi, looks surprisingly like the Roman in many of its letter forms -- have a dekko at it here: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/brahmi.htm
Other writing systems, such as Chinese, Egyptian, Sumerian, &c., are not related, but are also not alphabets but rather some sort of pictoral scripts of varying kinds. So the alphabet appears to have only been invented once!
So all of this is to say that all alphabets are ultimately related through the Semtic source, but I do not know whether the Turkic and Futhark are particularly closely linked or not - the pictures show some similarities.

Interestingly, the futharc runic alphabet appears to have derived its peculiar form from the type of material originally most frequently used for inscriptions in Scandinavia/Germania = wood. This is why there are no right-angles to the runes, as these would be difficult to carve into wood in such a way that they would not split the wood or be difficult to see. Similarly the 'serifs' of Roman script are byproducts of carving into stone and I suspect the letter forms of Brahmi are a similar story, as Brahmi inscripts are also (mainly?/all?) in stone. Whereas modern Indian script seems to descend from the system developed for writing with pen & ink. Etc., etc.

I hope this long-winded reply is helpful..

cheers,
Ben

p.s hi Andreas - I missed greeting you earlier, but have seen your posting -- guten tag da im Bayern! Funny about Attila 'little father' - you're right, but I wonder where Gothic Atta 'father' comes from? It doesn't look much like other IE 'father-words' which usually have a P (e.g. Lt. 'pater', Skt. 'pitr', &c.) or other labial (like F in Germanic, e.g. Eng. 'father', Germ. 'vater')... B.
 
I'm a linguist of sorts, but unlike Beoram my area isn't historical linguistics.

I am, however, working on a history of "Scientific Babelism," of which the Semitic/Futhark theory above seems to be a part. This deals with attempts to derive all languages and orthographies from Hebrew in an effort to support a literal reading of the Tower of Babel story in Genesis. I hadn't seen this particular connection drawn before, though; thanks for the link. :cool:

ruel
 
looks like crap to me. There's a lot of pseudo science that has beeen done with runic inscriptions. Especially in the last 200 years. The transliterations look close, but I think they broke some of the 'words' in the runic phrase to their liking.

As for translation, The stones are hard to translate because the creator of the stones mixed the symbolic use of cetain runes (liek the "Fe, Fe, Fe" section) with actual text. Since runes could repersent a word or concept by themselves, they will often be used in place of the full word in a rune line. For instance the "B" rune is called Bjork or Berkano, and beans Birch or Birch Goddess. Therefore the clever runester would 'shorthand' Birch to B.

Call it conventional wisdom, but I think these stones are considered untranslatable for a reason. THere are 2-3 separate futharks operating on these stones, so most likely they were done in different time periods. I see Elder Futhark, Younger Futhark, and Viking Futhark beinng used.

I believe the runes to be tied to etruscan and phonecian origins. After all, you cant travel to the coners fo the earth and not pick up a few tricks like writtten language.

Keith
 
Thank you for the response people.

Semites in Scandinavia appeared like a real weird idea to me as well. I could only find unsound reasons for traveling from a hot and hospitable climate to a bitter Scandinavian climate. The only thing that could push someone into doing something like that would be a religious call. But still, such a long and dangerous voyage just to convert a small group of remote barbarians when other parts of the world had more densly populated areas with more victims to convert! It seems rather in vain to choose Scandinavia if you wish to spread your religious ideas. I found it hard to believe there had ever been any Semites here and now after your responses I feel quite certain.

And thanks for the lecture on the origins of written letters. I guess "Turkish" cannot be directly linked to runes either. The only thing I knew was that written letters came from the south and that our runes were made to carve in wood.

I agree folks. This must be another one of those nonsense history revisionisms at best. Too many people with agendas are out there.

Thanks again for the helpfulness. :)

Skål! (=cheers)
 
Originally posted by Ferrous Wheel

For instance the "B" rune is called Bjork or Berkano, and beans Birch or Birch Goddess. Therefore the clever runester would 'shorthand' Birch to B.

Funny...
Birch is called bjørk in Norwegian, just like that ancient form Bjork. Seems some basic words never change.
 
But what if a group of Scandinavians traveled to the Semite south and got converted there? And traveled back home and started their own sect. Just like New Agers do with great vigour today...?

Naahh... couldn't be could it...? Hippies in ancient heathen Scandinavia running around intoxicated by/drunk on the idea of spreading a new religion and changing the world...? :D
 
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