Oil stones recommendation.

Zatx

Zatx

Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
194
So I've owned about every knife sharpening system that has come along. I can put a mirror polished 16,000 grit finish on the bevel of a blade or sharpen a spoon to shaving sharp with the bottom of a coffee mug. Been there done that.

But, in all my time I've never mastered freehand sharpening with benchstones.

That all changed this week when I purchased a Norton combination India stone from an antique store. In one evening I put the ugliest edges you've ever seen on all of my kitchen knives and a few pocket knives. But... despite how incredibly fugly they were, and despite this being a Coarse/Fine stone (IB6), they were the sharpest edges I've ever produced.

Me likey.

But, oh my gosh are these edges nasty and gnarly looking. So, I've come here seeking the experts' recommendations on follow-up oil lubricated benchstones to get these bevels looking better. I'm not after mirror-polish, but I need a more refined bevel for smoother cutting. I really like the feel of using honing oil on this stone so I'd like to stick with that.

Would be nice if I could get a few specific recommendations (rather than "get an Arkansas stone, dummy!").

Thanks guys!
 
Are you after oil stones specifically? If it has to be oil stones, you might do a search for Silicon Carbide sharpening stones. The go to in this category has been the good ole Crystolon stone, but the fine side isn't any finer than the fine side of an India. However, there are companies that do make SiC stones in higher grit ratings, and I've even thought about trying a few myself. Another good thing about SiC stones, they'll cut any steel out there, only struggling on the highest of the vanadium steels (think S90V/S110V and the like). I want to say Gritomatic has SiC stones in higher grits. Other than that, Arkansas stones are indeed another option, but they struggle on higher hardness steels, and higher carbide % steels.

Curious as to why you think the edge of the Inida is nasty/gnarly looking. I love a good India stone. The edges off the fine are wicked sharp, a good combination of push/slice ability. Especially on the lower alloy steels, 52100, 1095, AEBL, W2, White, Blue, etc. On higher alloy steels (and low alloy steels that are run hard, usually kitchen knives in the 64-66HRC), the India struggles a little.

If it HAS to be oil, take a look at Gritomatic's (or other companies) SiC stones. If it CAN be water stones, there are a LOT of options for you, as I'm sure you know. (The SiC stones can be used with water instead of oil, if you desire).
 
If the bevels' appearance is mainly just about their width (narrow in some places, wider in others, etc), or with extraneous scratches going beyond the bevels, that'll all get better with more practice at holding a steady angle and fine-tuning applied pressure as you sharpen.

If the finish of the bevels is what's 'gnarly', that'll improve with some stone break-in time. The finish off the Fine side of the India will become more refined with use. I have an IB8 (recent model, Mexico-made), and it's Fine side started out leaving a finish looking like the low end of Norton's ~ 320 - 400 rating for it. With more use, it does begin to look closer to the ~ 400 end of that scale. And as Stuart said earlier, the Fine India can create some wicked-nasty slicing edges with bite. Great for kitchen knives and EDC-users especially. More often than not, when I finish an edge on the Fine India, I follow only with some bare-paper stropping over the oiled stone, and leave it at that. One knife I used as part of the 'break-in' for my India was a 10" Chicago Cutlery chef's knife from an old block set of my parents'. It'd never been resharpened beyond the factory, so far as I know, and it's from a (likely) ~ 1980s-vintage set. The bevels weren't as 'pretty' as they could be, after I was done resetting the edge; but I was able to successfully test the sharpening by tossing grapes against the edge and splitting them. That's a real nice slicing edge on a very simple, inexpensive knife.

I've liked mine enough, that I also purchased a small 4" x 1" India Fine pocket stone from Norton, so I can quickly touch-up that exact same finish on the go. And I'm still considering getting an intermediate-sized stone, maybe 6" or so, in the Fine India grit as well. I'm certain now, I'll find good use for all of them; they've really grown on me.
 
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With the surge in so-called premium steels, Arkansas stones have fallen out of mainstream favor. But I love them and for the so-called lesser steels they work extremely well.

An 8"x2" is a good size but I prefer 8"x3" or even 10" long. A soft Ark is an awesome stone. It isn't just for honing, it can sharpen provided you don't let the blade get too dull and of course steel dependent. I think for most applications this would be a perfect stopping point. But a hard or even a black is pretty cool too. Completely unnecessary but cool.
 
By the sound of it it's less an issue of the finish produced by the stone so much as an issue of the finish produced by beginner sharpening? As in, irregularities in the surface finish because of inconsistency in the angle of the stroke? Because that'll get better as you learn good technique. For starters, I suggest locking the wrists and elbows and generating the stroke from a pivot of the torso and a shift from the legs. You'll find it easier to hold the blade in a uniform position that way.

Silicon carbide stones are generally known for producing a very sharp scratch, and an edge that will be toothy, but prone towards being on the ragged side. This isn't always the case for a given stone, but silicon carbide grains have very sharp angles to them. "India stones" are just vitrified bond aluminum oxide, typically in a fairly hard bond. Aluminum oxide has a comparatively rounded shape to the grains that, combined with their lower hardness vs. silicon carbide, makes them tougher but less aggressive, and so for a given grain size, India stones cut slower, but leave a finer finish compared to silicon carbide. They are generally preferred when polishing a bevel and putting on the final edge.
 
Yes, as stated your India stone will break in after about 2 dozen knives. Keep using mineral oil as I get the best edges with it.
As you noticed the edges coming off the Norton IB-6 really cut and they will get better as you come to understand the stone. I am like you and didn't like the edges coming off Norton's New India stone. But in time I did. The edges that I get coming off the
older stones mfg. in the USA I like Much better. DM
 
Yes, to 42's post. ^
I've come to think the India stone struggles as the steel grade improves. Once I get up to a grade like 440C I'll go to a SiC stone.
Razor Edge has the highest grit SiC stone grit at 800. They sell good quality products. I have procured a 400 grit SiC stone which
is high enough for my tastes. Yes, the lower grits produce a more ragged edge. The edge coming off the medium grit expresses
more refinement using a light touch. Enjoy, your learning experience. DM
 
David Martin said:
Yes, to 42's post. ^
I've come to think the India stone struggles as the steel grade improves. Once I get up to a grade like 440C I'll go to a SiC stone.
Razor Edge has the highest grit SiC stone grit at 800. They sell good quality products. I have procured a 400 grit SiC stone which
is high enough for my tastes. Yes, the lower grits produce a more ragged edge. The edge coming off the medium grit expresses
more refinement using a light touch. Enjoy, your learning experience. DM
Click to expand...

Aluminum oxide is a decent amount harder than the chromium carbides in 440C. Chromium carbide has a Knoop hardness of about 1820, while aluminum oxide is 2100 and silicon carbide is 2500. Silicon carbide being harder than chromium carbide does mean it'll abrade it easier (as well as in combination with its more aggressive grain shape) but aluminum oxide doesn't really struggle with anything short of steels with over 3% vanadium content in my experience, and even then is able to handle those up to ANSI 400 grit. Something like D2 can take a little while to sharpen, but that's the case even when using diamond stones just 'cause the carbides are so dang big.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Aluminum oxide is a decent amount harder than the chromium carbides in 440C. Chromium carbide has a Knoop hardness of about 1820, while aluminum oxide is 2100 and silicon carbide is 2500. Silicon carbide being harder than chromium carbide does mean it'll abrade it easier (gaas well as in combination with its more gressive grain shape) but aluminum oxide doesn't really struggle with anything short of steels with over 3% vanadium content in my experience, and even then is able to handle those up to ANSI 400 grit. Something like D2 can take a little while to sharpen, but that's the case even when using diamond stones just 'cause the carbides are so dang big.
Click to expand...
One material harder than the other tells only part of the story. It's the grain shape & type that does the cutting and this is what
I'm noticing. Thanks, DM
 
The place I work now issues the Norton IB6 india stone, for whatever reason. All places I've worked in the past issued jb6's and 8's.
Although I get good edges, the india cuts slower and dishes faster than SiC, even when sharpening 1095 type steels.

I highly prefer silicon carbide combo stones such as the Norton jb6 or 8.
 
jpm, you must mean only on the coarse side of your IB6, it dishes. Because my SiC and India stones will dish on the coarse side.
Not much on the fine side. DM
 
Stones dishing has as much to do with technique as with blade or stone hardness. If you bear down on a curved blade it will wear a trough in the stone. Like a fine sports car curves require a light touch.
 
drail said:
Stones dishing has as much to do with technique as with blade or stone hardness. If you bear down on a curved blade it will wear a trough in the stone. Like a fine sports car curves require a light touch.
Click to expand...

And/or make sure you're working the whole face of the stone equally. Goes a LONG way towards keeping it reasonably flat. :)
 
When I see I'm getting a dish I'll start working knives more on the ends of the stone. Which can usually even it out.
On the coarse is where I notice it the most. Likely from pressure and trying to remove more metal quickly. DM
 
David Martin said:
Yes, as stated your India stone will break in after about 2 dozen knives. Keep using mineral oil as I get the best edges with it.
As you noticed the edges coming off the Norton IB-6 really cut and they will get better as you come to understand the stone. I am like you and didn't like the edges coming off Norton's New India stone. But in time I did. The edges that I get coming off the
older stones mfg. in the USA I like Much better. DM
Click to expand...

Thank you, everyone, for the responses.

A couple of points of clarification. The main issue I had with the appearance of the bevel is just the severity of the cut patterns; I'm used to a more polished or even satin look from smaller grits from my shapton glass/hapstone work. Also, the Norton India stone I have is an older one made in the USA that I found for sale in unused condition in an antique store. $10 for a 33-year-old stone ain't bad, eh?

I picked up a 600/1000 stone off of Amazon that wasn't listed as a water stone, and that the seller said works great with oil, but it did not. When I received it it was obviously a water stone and any oil I poured on it soak right in and provided no lubrication.
 
If it soaked right in then you needed a lot more oil. A trick of making stones less oil-thirsty is to warm petroleum jelly until it liquefies and let a bunch of that seep into the stone. This fills the core of the stone so you just need to oil the surface.
 
Zatx said:
Thank you, everyone, for the responses.
A couple of points of clarification. The main issue I had with the appearance of the bevel is just the severity of the cut patterns; I'm used to a more polished or even satin look from smaller grits from my shapton glass/hapstone work. Also, the Norton India stone I have is an older one made in the USA that I found for sale in unused condition in an antique store. $10 for a 33-year-old stone ain't bad, eh?
I picked up a 600/1000 stone off of Amazon that wasn't listed as a water stone, and that the seller said works great with oil, but it did not. When I received it it was obviously a water stone and any oil I poured on it soak right in and provided no lubrication.
Click to expand...
The old Norton stones I have do leave a more satin finish after they break in. I wouldn't expect the first try to be near the best. DM
 
Basically all synthetic abrasives have a slight break-in period due to the as-molded surface texture. Depending on the character of the stone and how it was made, this may mean the stone at first behaves coarser or finer than it will after the first layer of grit has shed and exposed the natural texture of the abrasive. :)
 
Norton's newer India stone the Hecho en Mexico, can take sometime to break in. A slight time to me is less than 6 knives. But
this stone will require much more. That's why I suspect a different grit material they are using. DM
 
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