ok, about to undertake a knife project...first one...

S

SkaerE

Joined
Sep 9, 2001
Messages
428
and i need some advice.
here is the deal:

i have a dremel, files, and a bench grinder. gonna get a sander here soon, but not yet. i have a grill and oven for anealing and tempering. i want to make a small 3-3.75'' blade hunting knife.

1st, what steel to use?
ive heard O1 is forgiving. i like that. 1095 and 5160 are also good options?
heard D2 is great steel, how hard is it to use/can i temper it at home? either way i will be getting barstock from Texas knife.

2nd, need some help for the different blade grinds, hollow vs flat. i think flat is what i want but would someone explain the difference? does flat mean a flat grind all the way up to the spine like a kitchen knife?

3rd, need some help with the difference between heat treating and tempering. also, direction on how to do both.

4th, how can you blacken a carbon steel blade? how does busse do it? how about others?

thanks in advance, i love this site, great place for good info from those in the know...
 
Congratulations! Once you start this there's no going back. But that's a good thing! :)

1. I think O1 is good. So far I've had good luck heat treating it, and you can do some searches here to find performance testing like Roger Linger has done. You can also heat treat your own 10XX series steel and many makers like 1095 particularly.

I could be wrong, but I think you need a controllable heat cycle and maybe atmosphere for D2.

2. Hollow grinding is like the common ole Buck knives we all know and love. Usually the grind is half an inch to three quarters of an inch high depending on the diameter of the wheel you're grinding on. You can get a very thin edge with a hollow grind - good for razors, scalpels, like that.

Can you tell I lean toward the flat grind? You're right, a flat grind usually goes all the way to the spine. This results in an edge with a lot of support without a lot of thickness behind it that might interfere with deeper cuts. A perfect variation of that is the convex grind, which you'll learn about as you start to read a lot. I think that's the ultimate, and I'm nearly courageous enough to begin to try it...

3. I'll let one of the local metalurgists chime in with the chemistry behind heat treating and tempering, the short answer is heat treating hardens the blade, tempering toughens it - reduces its brittleness. If magic has a place in knifemaking, it's here. I'm only half joking, heat treating a blade is - can be anyway - a very mystical experience, and good results with the steels you're talking about often have more to do with experience that looks like magic or mysticism than with hard science...though it's that too. It is the soul of the knife and there is no mistake about that. Bruce Evans says the soul of the knife begins in the fire...you'll learn what he means.

4. There are a myriad of ways to color steel. You'll learn many of them here, searches are good for things like that, I hope you can go without a lot of sleep for a while... :cool: I think Busse does some kind of powder coat, maybe someone here knows better what that is. I like it too.

5. would be tools. You're starting out with the tools you have to have, all you must add to that is patience. More tools won't add much to your skill but will help your production. If I may be so bold, don't scrimp when you buy tools. I say this from true lifelong experience! But I also have some seriously cheap tools that are 35 years old and going strong...

Well, this is the short answer, each of your questions can be the subject of a book.

More later,

Dave
 
I really did fall in love with O-1. I am trying to move on now to stainless now that I have a good high temperature oven but will continue to use O-1 for knives at times. However, I built a small forge for heat treating simple high carbon tool steels (such as O-1).
The forge is fueled from a 20 gal. propane tank and a simple tourch bought locally. Anyhow, doing a search on this forum for keywords such as 'heat treating O-1' or O1, 'forges', 'one brick forge' should get you on the right path to what you need to know about the heat treat. I will be happy to go into detail about my limited experience heat treating O-1 if you wish to ask by email.

I found O-1 to exceed my greatest expectations in both machinability and edge retension (if treated properly). It is well within the limitations of home oven tempering and can be properly heat treated at only 1475 degrees F..

I will share this here: I had a lot of trouble at first tempering my O-1 because I trusted my kitchen oven to be accurate. A simple 3 dollar expenditure at Walmart for an oven thermometer proved my oven to be about 125 degrees F. high. Instead of straw color I was getting blue.

Search the forum and I recommend going with O-1. You'll like it. It was highly recommended to me by some others on this forum and I am glad.

Roger
 
We use a black textured epoxy powder with some added teflon on our blades. This stuff seems to hold up better than any other coating that we've tested.

0-1 is a great steel. Very fine grained. . . . great edge holding. . . .takes a great buff. . . . very good choice.

Good luck with your project! :)

Jerry Busse
 
I am not a flash maker and was a bit cheap to start with. My first and favourite knife is made from a forged round car coil spring. It has worked well for nearly ten years.
I don't know the numbers to it but I also went to the local spring maker at the industrial side of town and got some annealed flat spring steel from him. I only asked to buy a couple of feet and he gave me some off cuts free. Holds a great edge. May be a cheap place to buy at first.

Again if it is cheap and nasty you want to get started I used to heat treat in old sump oil. The carbon in it makes the blade black.

I sarted with a couple of files and sand paper with cheap materials. Now I use 440c stainless and send it to the professionals for treating.Now I have belt sanding machine etc. Some may disagree but my point is get in and make something. Seeing myself improve was the fun. Once you start selling your improved product I would recomend only the best materials. You don't want to cheapen the view people have of the craft.
 
You can't hardly go wrong with some O1. It has the advantage of coming in a very regular size and thickness and is fully annealed (softened) so that it works easily with hand tools. With a little inventiveness you can heat treat it yourself.

I can't add much to what everyone else has said but I think it is important to start out as cheaply and simply as possible. You already have the basic tools so buy some steel and have at it. If you like it you won't be able to stop at one!

Your main stumbling block will be the heat treat but as Dave pointed out the search button will yield a hoard of information from the Shop Talk Archives especially. The blade will need to be evenly heated to critical. You'll know you are in the neighborhood when the red-orange blade goes non-magnetic. Try not to overheat it, especially the tip. You can quench in simple veggie oil or a mineral oil such as hydraulic fluid.

Tempering can be easily done in your kitchen oven and as Roger pointed out an oven thermometer is a good idea. Two thermometers are even better, so that you have two sources to compare against each other in case the thermometers are off.

Do some research give it a shot. My first completd knife was a little kitchen knife made from O1 for my wife that I heat treated with a propane torch and some fire bricks.
 
Reg- Well put! I could not have said it better. After making my first knife with scraps I found around my shop, I moved to a known steel. I started out with O1 and as a new knife maker ( since feb of this year) still use it. I have made a bout 20 blades so far and as such, it is the first steel I am learning what I can and can't do. For instance, don't grind too thin or it will warp in HT. That led me to 440C where I can grind thinner...and so on. Best thing is to keep working and experimenting, and I think that O1 is a not only a great learning steel, but one that you can keep using for years. I think as you look through the posts you will find that this stell is used mor often than not by new makers.

For supply I now use these folks: http://www.toolanddie.com/ is great for O1 - for instance $13.85 for 5/32" x 1-1/2" x 36" precision ground flat stock.... less if you by more than 3 pieces

Happy grinding


http://www.southrivermodelworks.com/page15a.html
http://www.southrivermodelworks.com/
 
Bob,

That's a great price for O-1 precision ground. I have a couple yards on hand but I'm going to check those guys out. Thanks

Roger
 
Roger- Haven't used the material yet, but it looks real clean, was shipped promptly and they don't hose you on shipping.

Bob
 
Is there a shop near you that makes automotive springs? If so, you may be able to get some 5160 for very cheap. This is another steel that is pretty forgiving in the heat-treat and produces great results.:)
 
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