OK. first design, critique me.

T

thegeek574

Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
2,460
Everyone,
I have been posting questions and getting a ton of help, and i am finally ready to proceed with knife 1. i should be getting steel in a couple weeks, and so it is time for the design to get looked over. I am not posting a picture of my hand holding a cardboard cutout because i can not get the cardboard to come out right.

First of all, I would like to thank the people that have made diving in fun and easy. first of all, the whole community has been great. everyone give yourselves a hand. you have been great. next, Mr. Max Burnett. I read his heat treating tutorial, which was excellent, and then e-mailed him with questions. he responded quickly and gave me all the info i needed. thank you, sir. next is mr. Ray Laconico. he has allowed me to use his nessuk handle design, and i am very happy about that because i just fell in love with it. last, but most definitely not least, is Mr. Stan Buzek. I asked him about wood, and he sent me some "scraps" (read- super nice pieces of wood with nicks out of them), free of charge, to look at and use. Sir, thank you very much. the only reason they are not going on this knife is because i do not want to mess them up. :D You all have made my hobby a dream to start.

Specs:
3/16-1/4 inch 5160, 1.5 inches wide.
cherry wood handle
Blade: 7 inches flat
Handle, 5 inches flat
Handle attachment: big pins and a lot of epoxy

On to the design. I have fallen in love with drop points, but i also like my knives thick, chunky, ugly, and functional, and so here is what i came up with. This is a chopper, and so i wanted as much flat blade presented to the chopee ;) as possible. a little bit of curve is appropriate, and so i went with just that, a little. there will be no swedges or prettifications. i am going to be beating the living crap out of this. here is the blade

DSCF1275.jpg


Here is an up close of the tip

DSCF1276.jpg


The handle is inspired by a nessuk in osage that mr. laconico did a while back. it is modified, of course. I prefer large handles where I can spread out my hand across the entire length, grab just the back, or come in close to the front, and so I want a very long handle. the most comfortable handle that i have every held is that on my ZT 0200, and the length is very similar. here is the handle.

DSCF1274.jpg


This is a close up of the end.

DSCF1277.jpg


I am pretty much up in the air about the handle. i want the basic shape to stay, but i am not sure how thick or wide i want it to be, and so suggestions are welcome. same with the placement of the pins. anything is fine. I am not sure if i want a lanyard hole, seeing as it complicates the entire design and i am trying to go for uber simple, but i might need it at some point. what do y'all think? Thank you, and happy metal shaping.
Steven
 
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I think you will enjoy yourself fully. You will learn things about yourself you did not know. You may end up with a hobby that you can only discuss on these here forums. And, I think you will enjoy yourself. I know I said it twice, because it is true.
 
CURVES....

I conducted Bladsmiths experiment with curves. And while still making my first couple knives will say that your design could benefit from some curves. The top of the knife is a straight line and would feel and look better with some curve.:D
 
Looks like you are really trying to think it all the way through. If you want a chopper, check out some of the competition cutters for design ideas.

Even for total abuse I think 1/4" is too thick for your dimensions. I have found that roughly 50:1 thickness to length ratio is a good starting point. That means 1/4" x 50 = 12.5" which is about when a knife that thick starts to look good. So 3/16 would be better suited and still plenty thick for serious abuse, if you draw the temper back properly at the spine.

Don't plan on making your perfect knife on your first try, you will be dissapointed. Do try to make a usable knife and you will be happy.


Cheers-
-Xander
 
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Alrighty. i think what i'm hearing is that the design is fine, I should go with 3/16ths, i should integrate more curves, and that i should not try for perfection.

thickness: ok, will do. that was the original plan, anyway.

more curves: i am trying to make this as basic and simple knife as possible. the more curves i put in, the easier it will get to mess it up. i think that about the only place i would put something is tapering the handle a bit to the ricasso, and then tapering back up to the full height of the spine. just a thought.

as far as perfection goes, striving for perfection is never a condition i have struggled with. if it is perfect, it gets admired. that is why i do not own a sebenza.

Now, i have some questions.

where would you put the pins?

what would good epoxy be?

should i go for a ffg or a half grind?

do i need a lanyard hole?

thanks
 
For curves, even just long gentle radii will add greatly to the overall appearance. As far as the perfection statement I made, I was just trying to convey the message of don't get discouraged if your first doesn't turn out the way you want, but trying a simpler design first increases the chances for sucess. Just a general statement, your design looks like it doesn't have any surprises waiting in it!

Symmetry is always pleasing to the eye, so why not divide the handle equally into four parts with the three pins.

A lanyard hole doesn't have to be in addition to your pins but can actually replace one. For heavy choppers, personally I like a forward lanyard hole near the front of the scales. With good handle design, they are entirely optional.

For epoxy, get as long of a curing time as you can find. If you only can find hardware store type, get atleast 1 hour. But West System G-flex I'm told is good, System 3 T-88, Acraglass, etc are all common.

I say start with a half high grind, then as you try to get your bevels even it will creep up higher and higher on its own.



-Xander
 
I kinda like the way the knife is super chunky. i'm making an executive decision and keeping it the way it is.

ok, 3 pins. 2 if i want to go really chunky.

i don't want to have to buy a bunch of lanyard tubes, and so i am going to just stick to pins.

ok. would 2 ton epoxy work?

half high grind. so, full flat grind by the time i get done? ;)

Thanks
 
I understand your desire to keep your design as is and respect your opinion. I believe what is trying to be conveyed is that if you add a bit of a dropped curve to the handle, you will find that the knife will perform better for hard work. A straight spine leading into a straight handle will cause stress and shock to your hand and wrist during use. By adding a gentle downward curve to your handle, it will be a bit more visually appealing of a design and a much better performing knife. I would seriously recommend that you study the designs of some of the competition choppers to see what I'm referring to. Believe me when I say that a minor adjustment to the design can save you lots of fatigue and pain during use later.
 
OK. should i have a gentle curve all the way down to the end of the handle? should i have the entire handle offset a few degrees down, Kukhri style?

by the way, thanks for setting me straight. probably would have never changed it if you had not told me it was actually functional.
 
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Yes, you want to drop the entire handle a bit. It doesn't have to be as extreme as a Kukhri, but you want a slight degree. I apologize for not being able to give you an exact degree measurement. As recommended before, check out some of the competition chopper designs. They should be pretty easy to find.
 
As has been mentioned, 1/4" would be too heavy. Overkill, even for the most abuse you could heap on it.

Dropping the "axis" of the handle a little bit will also help with comfort when using a chopper like that.

If I were making this knife, I wouldn't swoop the tail end of the handle downward so much. I'd leave the top of the back of the handle straighter and use a smaller radius to start the curve. Does that make sense? It looks like having a such a narrow end to the handle might make keeping hold of it difficult when you're swinging it...as you'd be doing with a chopper.
 
Makermook said:
It looks like having a such a narrow end to the handle might make keeping hold of it difficult when you're swinging it...as you'd be doing with a chopper.
Click to expand...

The blade looks like it will be a good chopper, but I agree with Makermook about the handle. I wouldn't want to be standing near you when you start swinging it. If I'm understanding you correctly you want a clean looking handle. I drew the handles in the picture below. They are not examples of "fine handle design", just my personal quest for the "perfect handle". But I'm thinking that something like the third handle from the top might be something that may work.


Make some handle mock-ups with cardboard and see how they feel. Pull on the tip of the blade and see if there are any design elements that contribute to a secure and comfortable grip.

I'll take a stab at some of your other questions. As a general rule the slower epoxy cures to form a more durable bond. Use a one-hour cure time epoxy. What brand? hmmmm... stick with a name brand, not an unknown brand. Also, you're going to spend a lot of hours to get the knife up to the point of putting the handle on. This is not the time to start rushing. Quenching may be a good time to rush, but that would be about it.

Lanyard holes don't HAVE to have a tube in them. I've been using 1/4" outside diameter copper pipe/tubing that is commonly used to run a water line to a refrigerator for the ice maker.

Good luck, have fun.

- Paul Meske, Sun Prairie, Wisconsin
 
you are right. i am really liking that third handle down. do you mind if i use a mutated version of it?
 
Regarding 1/4" thickness....I see NO problem with 1/4" for a chopper...anything thinner and you will be chopping all day. I have made cutters with a spine of 3/8" that have won compititions. More important is getting a good grind and a thin edge.
The point on your drawing looks to me like it should be a little lower and a little longer(you could make the end of the knife blunt and it will still work as a chopper)...just my opinion on looks.
The handle...I agree the top/back part of the handle drops off too much...and it looks to me like you need more "pull"(pinky hookage) at the bottom of your handle. I have also found that if the handle is wider in the back it gives you more grip and holding power in a chop.
Lanyard.....HELL YES! Your gonna NEED one for chopping!

As for a first knife design....it's a good start. If you make this knife and use it for chopping chores you will be scores ahead of other newbies who never try a chopper, because you WILL learn a LOT about your design when you go to use it...more so if your trying to chop a 2x4 in half in under 10 seconds!
Good luck!
Mace
 
I do agree that a bit of a drop in the handle makes chopping eaiser. I have an Ontario 12" Cutlass Machete, it's almost straight down the spine and into the handle. It chops okay, better than shorter blades, but after a while it's not so comfortable. As a comparison, my Culberson Bolok has more curve going on. So does the ESEE Junglas...
100_0958.jpg


That Culberson is forged 5160, and is 13/64" thick, a fat 3/16". I feel that if it were thicker, it would be too heavy, for me. But, it's all relative to the grind, note the Ontario machete, it's flat 1/8" thick all the way down till the convex starts. A 1/4" thick spine is okay if it's a full flat grind, that's lighter than a saber grind.
Another way to add to a choppers power is to have more weight at the tip, note the Bolok's height along it's length, gets fatter towards the tip, so does the Ontario machetes.
100_0957.jpg
 
Hmmm. I think i will go with 3/16ths if i can get it because i do not have the ability to hollow grind the blade, and i think that that would be the only way i could get the edge thin enough. I will be revising the handle and giving it a more abrupt curve at the butt with a more gentle curve down the back, and doing 2 pins, 1 lanyard tube.

When i classified this as a chopper, i meant that it would be to be able to be abused, as opposed to a kitchen knife, which needs to slice well and survive little. if i was going for a full blown chopper, i would make this 10 inches or more. i don't think i am set up to heat treat that easily, and i am absolutely not going to pay the 30 bucks it will take to ship the stupid thing to somewhere, get it heat treated, and then shipped back. that's kind of defeating the purpose of doing it as cheaply as possible. i can get an adequate heat treat at home, maybe not perfect, but adequate. now that the rant is over, thanks all for the advice. this is really helpful.
 
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