Ok its an old question, but...

The General

The General

Joined
Jun 6, 2000
Messages
3,625
Ask yourself what one knife is constantly asked for... Be honest now, how many people want an Axis lock, Spyderhole AFCK?

Now they have that stupid rugby ball shaped hole, there is no reason not to use the hole. I don't like the look of the new hole, but to get this knife I would put up with it. How about making the models in BG-42 and M2/CPM 3V as well?

I honestly think this would be one of the best knives available, and yet BM just refuse to even comment on this issue, silence.

Now two years ago, I figured this was because they were listening and waiting for the right time. However, seeing how they have made so many varients of blades, such as the different Aries and 720 series blades, it got me thinking. If they can tool up for such a slight difference, that I honestly don't think makes a significant difference, why the heck don't they make this Axis/AFCK model?

IMHO the axis is one of the safest and smoothest locks around, and the AFCK blade design is great.

However the AFCK needs a far more robust and inflexable liner and scale, not to mention a better lock. Which leads me back to the Axis AFCK.

Why won't BM listen to us, instead of producing a number of similar products (how many 850,855 etc varients?).

I know that even if the Axis AFCK was made as a limited 'spirit' run or whatever they call it, it would sell out three or four times over. Does anyone have an answer to why BM have ignored and rebuked constant requests for this knife? As above I DON'T think it is for profitability reasons or tooling etc. The only honest reason I can come up with is an Axis AFCK would harm the sales of both the AFCK and many of the Axis models. So, if that is the reason, BM would rather give is half the cake and make us buy the other half, only to find that the two halves don't add up to the knife we want (at twice the price to find this). Call my cynical, but can you think of ONE example of a company flatly refusing to listen to the requests of paying customers?

Take Spyderco, they listen, they provide a number of blades that WE ask for, as do Camillus, they did it out of respect for Formites and customers, even ig#f breaking even is more than likely the best they can hope for. But wait! BM are producing a number of limited models AND a Forum 705 which looks VERY nice???? What the heck is going on?
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
General,
I think the shape of the hole relates to patent rights. The AFCK is the absolute cleanest, most functional knife available, especially if one adds the Axis lock. The difference in opening styles is easily adaptable. Kudos belong to Bob Terzuola for designing the prototypical production tactical knife, no matter what opening system is utilized.
David

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AKTI# A000150
NC Custom Knifemakers Guild member
NC Knife Knuts member
 
Wayne:
I too would love to see an Axis AFCK. I suggest starting a pettition and emailing it to BM. As you said, however, this would hurt sales of two established models (AFCK and 710) and to a lesser degree all the other axis knives. BM will have to decide what's better for them financialy. I'd rather not have an Axis AFCK than have BM go out of bussiness. Just my 2 cents.



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William Callahan

"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without
hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd
never expect it."
-Jack Handey

I'm one of those wierdos who likes Zytel.
 
I too remain dumbfounded by BM's refusal to make this knife. It would definately become an instant sucess as well as the new benchmark for tactical knives across the board. I bet that if they let Spyderco use the Axis lock Sal could pull it off!
biggrin.gif
 
I like the AFCK as it is. I think BM wants to keep it as a lower cost all-around worker knife. Now if the Mc-Henry Williams had a hole in it, that might be different.
 
When Benchmade used to use the round hole, they paid a fee to Spyderco. I don't think they have to anymore since I believe I read Sal Glesser say that the patent ran out. I think a patent lasts 18 years.
Anybody have any info on this? Sal?
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lifter4Him@aol.com:
When Benchmade used to use the round hole, they paid a fee to Spyderco. I don't think they have to anymore since I believe I read Sal Glesser say that the patent ran out. I think a patent lasts 18 years.
Anybody have any info on this? Sal?</font>
Click to expand...

It's true that the patent ran out. However SPyderco made a really smart move and made the round hole their trademark. So it's now protected as a trademark and not as a patent.
Sal explains it here
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum41/HTML/000203.html


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Seek simplicity, and distrust it.
Whitehead, Alfred North (1861 - 1947)
 
BTW, I'd buy an Axis Lock AFCK.

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Seek simplicity, and distrust it.
Whitehead, Alfred North (1861 - 1947)
 
I would definately buy an Axis AFCK. While the licensed Spyderco hole was a big plus, I find that for me and the oval hole is not bad at all. I'm not sure why I hear so many people complain about Benchmade changing over to an oval hole. I checked out one the new 834 Ascent-II models with the oval hole and the feel of it was fine for me. I am hoping to see a new AFCK with the Axis lock, but the oval hole does not bother me one bit.
 
callawhj, could you please explain how producing and selling a product that is sure to be a hit and practically fly off the shelves will put a company out of business? True, they may not sell as many of their other models, but they're also getting the money from selling the new and improved model. All they have to do is sell it at a price high enough to offset the expense. We expect it to be more expensive than a liner lock AFCK and we're willing to pay it, so how could producing it possibly be detrimental to the Benchmade's profits?
 
I seriously doubt that an Axis lock AFCK would hurt the sales of BM established models, in particular the liner lock AFCK and the 710.

It wouldn't hurt the liner lock AFCK sales, because BM wouldn't produce any more AFCK's with liner locks. Perhaps they're trying to keep the costs down (AFCK II recommended price: $120+, Average Axis lock: $170+). However, BM has many lower cost models to choose from, even those with a hole (e.g. the Ascent, or the 550 griptilian).

I doubt that an Axis lock AFCK would hurt the 710 either. The 710 is nothing like the AFCK: it has a totally different ergonomic feel, it has a different blade geometry, etc. Some people actually like the thumb stud. If the theory is that it would hurt sales of the 710 because of the Axis lock on a tactical, then the 550 should totally destroy the 710/720/730/770. Personally, I think they're in different markets, and the AFCK is not the same as the 710, much like the 550 is not the same as the 720.

More than likely, there are probably two reasons BM isn't producing a axis-AFCK. One, if it ain't broke, don't fix it: the AFCK is a best selling model - until sales drop, why change it? Second, the margin on liner locks is probably better: BM already has a well developed capability to produce liner locks, and the liner lock is far simpler, requiring less production time/effort. Even with the higher price on the axis, BM probably makes more money from the liner. (Not to mention the fact that the axis is licensed from McHenry and Williams: I don't believe anyone recieves money for the liner lock)

Perhaps someday BM will see the light, and convert the AFCK. I doubt that day will be soon. The best way to make it happen is to educate the populace on the virtues of the Axis lock, and the failings of the liner lock. When demand falls enough on the liner, perhaps we'll see it disappear.
-- Rob

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Me fail english? That's unpossible!
 
I'm not saying that they shouldn't do it or that it wouldn't sell. Heck, I'd buy several, but it ultimately has to be their decision, and they know more than me about what will sell and what won't. I don't think they would go out of bussiness, that's just an exageration, I guess

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William Callahan

"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without
hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd
never expect it."
-Jack Handey

I'm one of those wierdos who likes Zytel.
 
It was reported to me by BM that they changed the hole because it better facilitated flip-down opening, the way Spyderco's were originally advertised as being easily opened. The oval hole does not "roll on the thumb" to the extent that the round hole does. Evading the patent/licensing issue is just a collateral advantage of changing the hole, and was not the primary reason.

I don't personally think an Axis AFCK is an impossibility. In fact, I think the new BM550 might be an lower-cost test-marketing product to see the response to an Axis folder with an oval hole. So if you want to see the Axis AFCK in production, you'd better go out and buy up all the 550's
smile.gif
. Ok, so you're not gonna do that most likely, but what we can do is give as much feedback on the existing 550 as possible via email and BM's forum to perhaps prompt the production of the currently non-existent Axis AFCK. Just my .01.

Professor.
 
I'm willing to state, right here and right now, that if BM made this knife, I would buy one in M2 (or similar steel) and one in 154CM (or similar steel). No questions, no doubts, NO BULL.

Here's wishing...

------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
This thread had me mumbling to myself for a couple reasons. First, I thought that in general it was accepted that the AFCK was one of those liner locks that really worked. If indeed it does, and as was pointed out continues to enjoy strong sales why should BM make major changes to it? Especially after just making the change in the hole shape?

The other reason I mumbled at myself was that I believe there is a common conception here that the great enthusiasm of a few forumites would automatically result in hot sales performance. That may well be an accurate perception, but it strikes me it is just as likely that our marketing concepts have little to do with the reality of making and selling knives.

Sure, Spyderco has apparently listened to forumites. And, Mike T has been able to put together a few forum special productions. But, jus the other day I remember reading that one of the forum specials had only 150 copies made, and that either Mike and/or Spark are still trying to get rid of them, months after their issue. Well, if forumites can't buy 150 knives quickly, I don't think it likely that many companies are going to jump into lockstep with our notions as to what knives they should make.

Just my $.02

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Asi es la vida

Bugs
 
When the Axis AFCK issue comes up I always think: if it isn't broken, why fix it?
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I carried my AFCK for six or seven years until I replaced it with a 710. I just like the blade design and ergos of the 710 better for defensive use. The AFCK still occasionally falls into the carry rotation, but I doubt that I would go out and buy another AFCK just because it has an Axis lock, the liner has worked fine for a long time.
Just my .02
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Wouldn't it be nice to think that a cutlery company could just bumble along successfully without ever implementing input from customers? There's been lots that have come to think of it. Probably most in fact.

Benchmade on the other hand is one of the first production knife companies (if not the first) that incorporated custom makers' input into design, and actually went so far as to reproduce the designs at a production knife price.

I firmly believe that Benchmade is coming around to the idea of direct customer input, especially with a concept as widely touted as the fabled Axis AFCK. On the other hand, I KNOW for fact that Benchmade has incorporated design improvements to existing models based on customer input. Prime examples: threadserts in the G10 scales, optional tip up or tip down carry on some models, and even offering G10-scaled versions of aluminum-handled models. Will they cross the bridge of completely revamping a model based on popular demand, who knows? But at least we can hope. If we can't have hope (and at least some knowledge of the company's history of incorporating customer feedback), then I guess we should just be happy with what comes down the pike. Not me, no thanks.

Professor.

[This message has been edited by Professor (edited 05-24-2001).]
 
Thanx Prof! I don't like doing BTTT as it seems to annoy a lot of people...



------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
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