OK, what's up with all the 440A I'm seeing lately?

[misque]

I simply cannot understand why I'm seeing what appears to me like a huge increase lately in 440A on factory cutlery. I know it's been used for decades on cheap Chinese crapola and such. But now I'm seeing companies like Kershaw using it, and using it on designs that richly deserve better. Same goes for Taylor Cutlery(read Smtih & Wesson knives) with their new line which goes by the name of "Homeland Security". These folks did their HRT series in 440C, why not the same for the new line?

Is this not the same steel that is generally considered by most who actually use their knives as mediocre at best?

I've used it myself (who hasn't?) and have been even more underwhelmed with it than the AUS-6(A or M, take your pick) that is on everyones bottom shelf cutlery.

Now, I can see using this grade of steel on a knife that will see very limited use, such as a dedicated self defense piece or glove box or trunk tool box knife. It'll get used rarely for emergency cutting but will not be an everyday EDC.

I guess my beef is the cutlery industry, as a whole, seems to be on an upward trend in the materials they are using in their offerings. This looks like a step backward to me and I find it a bit troubling.

All the best,
Mike U.

 

[DaveH]

IMO the industry is split, some higher end knives are getting better steel, but as a whole, in terms of quantity across all lower end models, the industry is moving towards less expensive steel.

Someday you'll see knives advertised as 100% metal or "steel like alloy" or some such.

 

[Danbo]

This has been discussed many times before. Ease of blade stamping, grinding and machining; not to mention the initially cheap cost are the main reasons. Factorys are there to make money. Somewhere, some suit decided that their company will put out a knife with steel that satisfies the bare minimums needed for the average user. Final cost of the knife is a big consideration too. With a good heat treat, 440A is adequate for all but the steel snobs(of which I am one, and there are many more here). It takes a good edge easily, and holds it adequately, and is relatively stain free(unless you leave it out in the rain or use it in saltwater).

Bottom line is 440A is easy and cheap to make knives out of, and is decently adequate for a lot of knife buyers. That doesn't mean us steel snobs have to like or buy the knives made out of it though.

 

[Don Adelfson]

440A is the Budweiser of blade steels....cheap, adequate, better than some of the other crap that's available...a medicore steel for the user with mediocre requirements

 

[misque]

Great replies so far. Thank you.

So, why not make 440B or 440C the bottom line?

You get a bit more Carbon, are able to get a point or two more hardness on the Rc scale and up the ante some on the edge holding ability of the steel.

As a hobbyist maker (spare time heat and beater) I use 440C as my stainless, (for those who GOTTA have a stainless steel blade) and I gotta tell ya it ain't that expensive, in fact, it's downright cheap if the truth be told. It's easy to work, easy to heat treat, grinds like a dream in the annealed state, and makes for a great blade. Very good edge holding, best stain resistance this side of a Cobalt blade and I've not heard much in the way of complaints about it.
I think Buck had the right idea back in the 60's when they were using it as their base steel.

Or 440B for that matter. Randall Made Knives uses it for their stainless steel knives. People who use 440B seem to be well pleased with it. Is it that much more difficult to blank out than 440A?

 

[Danbo]

Higher carbon, equals higher cost and increased wear resistance. We knife lovers want the increased wear resistance, but the factories do not, since it wears out their machines quicker.

 

[Knifeclerk]

Wait a second... Taylor cutlery is downgrading their steel further?? So this is going to be worse than on the SWAT knives?? Crap. Now I'm going to have even more angry smithy owners in the shop complaining about how they knife I told them not to buy is doing exactly what I said it would.
Kershaw is using it also? That surprises me...

 

[pep]

It would seem to me, that even on the ATS-34 level, the added cost to a single knife would not be that much, and when the makers buy in bulk it would be less still.
If for instance, CRKT would upgrade and come out with some 154 cm and ATS they would grab alot more market share as they have all the basics down very well.
I know their S2 is a fine knife, yet they stopped there.
If I knew, I could put say $10 extra (passed on to the consumer anyway)to the cost of a single knife, yet capture 30% more of the total global market, I would not hesitate.
Forget the bottom line.
That will come naturally, when you capture more of the lion share of sales.
Its not like it will cost you anything, those costs can easily be passed to the buyers.
Basic economics.
Sam Walton wrote the book on this subject.

 

[diamdave]

Steel is going up. Dumbells I priced at Galyans three months ago at .35 cents/lb are now priced at .43 cents /lb. Platinum is around $900 up from $650 last November.... all metals are up.

 

[JDBLADE]

It seems ludicrous to me that given that the blade is the most important part of a knife that this is where companies cut costs. Having said that, regardless of what the downward trend in knife buying, there is still a lot of people in the world who buy knives and many of them find 440A/Aus6 quite adequate for their needs - of course most of them would not know what steel was what as the price is often the final decider. For those of us who appreciate good steel and good knives they continue to upgrade their steels and we will keep buying them. It is interesting to note that more and more of the so-called "chinese" knives are upgrading to 440c.

 

[airyq]

JDee, I think most knife buyers do not question the steel used and you cannot tell steel quality by just looking at the blade. In a perverted sort of way, it does make sense for knife companies to down grade their steel to save costs as most buyers would not notice any way. I am probably the only member of my entire family who knows that there is more that just "stainless" and "will rust" when choosing a knife.

A cheap looking handle on the other hand would really put most buyers off.

 

[rev_jch]

If you've noticed the smith's use to be made in taiwan, were alittle better qaulity for what they were. Now most are made in china! 44oa and china seem to go well together. Allot of 440a coming fromthere these days.

kershaw has made knives int he past from 440a, nothing new there.

440a is alos much more cheap to use (money savings).

i understand your feelings, Im not a fan of 440a either.

 

[Mr.BadExample]

440A is the Budweiser of blade steels....cheap, adequate, better than some of the other crap that's available...a medicore steel for the user with mediocre requirements

Must agree. I'm a steel snob, but I have a NextGen Kabar that is 440A, and it has chopped branches, etc and not lost its edge or chipped. Can't complain for a $75 knife.

 

[Knife Outlet]

Once the downward spiral starts, it continues. In the old days we had mostly American made knives with relatively inexpensive steel. Then along came the internet and quickly upgraded people's interests and motivated the manufacturers to make superior products. The average price of knives increased greatly and they were still available at affordable prices because the internet dealers could work on slimmer margins. Some companies grew significantly thanks to the internet (but few will admit that was the reason.) Now, with the wholesale movement of manufacturing to China, things are on the way down. There are still plenty of good knives available from Benchmade, Spyderco, Lone Wolf, Masters of Defense, Fallkniven and many more, so there is no need to get worried. I don't think it's the end of the world, just fallout from 4 years of recession and the desire of manufacturers to move manufacturing to China.

When all is said and done, they will make what people want to buy. People don't want to buy what they wanted to buy in 1999. If they did, then that's what they would make and China would be out of the knife business. If you want to keep great knives coming from the manufacturers then discipline yourselves to buy fewer better knives and say no to the Chinese made products. Your pocketbook is what drives everything, after all. I doubt the trend will change any time soon, however. Take care.

 

[Danbo]

Must agree. I'm a steel snob, but I have a NextGen Kabar that is 440A, and it has chopped branches, etc and not lost its edge or chipped. Can't complain for a $75 knife.

One reason you are having such good luck with your Kabar Next Gen, is that the steel is not 440A, but is Sandvik 12C27(unless Kabar has changed it over the last couple of years). Sandvik 12C27 is a very good, very fine grained stainless.

 

[Sword and Shield]

Steel is going up. Dumbells I priced at Galyans three months ago at .35 cents/lb are now priced at .43 cents /lb. Platinum is around $900 up from $650 last November.... all metals are up.

Hot-rolled, straight carbon steel is now at about $490 a ton, the highest I've ever seen. I've sold steel products for 8 years, and it's gone up more in the last year than in the previous 7. Don't blame the war, though. China's buying up the stuff by the boatload.

 

[biogon]

I've heard steel prices have skyrocketed -- much of the blame is going to China for eating up not high qual stainless but rather the components for it (vanadium, chromium, etc.)

440C is nice. I like it in kitchen knives.

AUS-6 (and its brother 440A) is nasty as hell.

Its edge holding is poor enough that non knife-knuts can tell, compared with 154CM/ATS-34.

-j

 

[Jason Cutter]

Like most steels, 440A and AUS6 has its uses. Where stain resistance is paramount, it could come out on top of better cutlery steels like ATS34 and even 440C. Thats until you want to cut something ... technically, it is also tougher.

12C27 is chemically similar (but not the same) as 440A. The reason it performs so much better is it is a Particullate Metalulrgy steel, ie.- powdered steel, sometimes also known as PMC27.

Where the blade is made is just as important. The same steel, be it AUS6 or 440A, produced in Japan and heat treated in Japan will be better than the same stuff made in China. You'd think this wouldn't make much of a difference, but the improvement in quality is very apparent to me. Thats been my experience.

For many companies looking to maximise their profit margins, the quest is to find a steel that is the cheapest to smelt and source, with the least possible exotic components, that can be made into a blade with the maximum ease, sort of hold an edge "adequately" (read, minimally adequately) and not rust too easily. That'll capture most customers in this throw-away generation. 420HC is the most logical competitor for 440A, for the very same reasons.

I agree with most of the ideas posted above. I consider myself a bit of stel snob. But just to contradict myself, my favourite folder for general use / EDC is a Kershaw Vapour II with an AUS6 blade ... the blade steel may be just so-so, but as a package, the knife is BLOODY GOOD.

Just a few extra thoughts. Jason.

 

[misque]

I consider myself a bit of stel snob. But just to contradict myself, my favourite folder for general use / EDC is a Kershaw Vapour II with an AUS6 blade ... the blade steel may be just so-so, but as a package, the knife is BLOODY GOOD

If asked 'Who here is a steel snob?' I'd have to raise my hand or fry in Hell for lying thru my teeth.

Jason,
You've hit right on one of my pet peeves with this issue. I love the Kershaw Vapor II also but the steel is sooo sub par for that knife. Design-wise, the Vapor just flat out ROCKS and would be so worth it to add $7.00-$10.00 on to the price tag and use 440C or even Sandvik's 12C27.
And there are a significant number of other designs out there that richly and rightfully deserve a better blade material that it's just a bloody shame.
Add the few dollars more per unit to the price tag if need be and get a better steel in these knives.
The uneducated masses need to know there is a better way than just the so-so, ho-hum, "gee I need to sharpen this piece of crap again" grade of cutlery steel out there.

Oops! Just fell off my soapbox.
Excuse me, I need to go take my Prozac.