Old 501 sharpening issues

BP_

BP_

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recently picked up an old pre 81 501. Love the knife, no complaints whatsoever. I'm having some trouble getting it sharp, though. I have many knives, and have achieved shaving sharpness with my sharpmaker many times over, but this one just doesn't seem to want to get sharp. Is this a possible HT issue from back in the day? Am I just impatient? I've spent several hours over the course of the past few days, and made absolutely no headway. In the meantime, I've sharpened up a few users and they get right back to shaving sharpness in a very reasonable amount of time. I even clamped it into my old Lansky and it still would not achieve even a laughable edge. I got fed up, ran it through my ken onion work sharp, and it STILL made no difference. When I say no difference, I really mean no difference. I am watching the steel consistently hit the edge, yet it 'feels' (to my eye) like it's not removing even the slightest bit of material. Yes, I am hitting the edge, every time. Yes, I am using a consistent angle, as close to every time as my human hands can. The 'method' (for lack of a better term) I use has consistently given me hair shaving sharpness on all my other knives, including in between attempts with this one. This little guy just doesn't seem to want to cut anything. Kind of disappointing, I really like this knife. Any input would be appreciated.
 
I had a buck 705 from around that time. The 440c had huge carbides and if I had to be honest believe it was a horrible heat treat.

It's blasphemous to say Paul Bos did a bad heat treat but those were some early years for HT still hate to say.
 
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Well, I have another pre '81 503 coming my way, I hope it is not a repeat of the same. It was advertised as mint, so maybe I'll get lucky and she'll still be sharp. Not likely, but we'll see. I really like these old knives.
 
Sometimes as a knife is repeatedly sharpened. The angle of the bevel gets steeper and steeper. Till eventually it gets so blunt, it can't cut anything, even if you are hitting the edge. This video by edge pro explains it better than I can, and show how to fix it.

O.B.
 
Old Biker said:
Sometimes as a knife is repeatedly sharpened. The angle of the bevel gets steeper and steeper. Till eventually it gets so blunt, it can't cut anything, even if you are hitting the edge. This video by edge pro explains it better than I can, and show how to fix it.

O.B.
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Interesting video. Actually, it explains a lot. I don't believe there has been much steel removed over the years, as the blade looks pretty full, but on a blade that small I could see that making sense. Definitely something worth looking into. Thanks for sharing.
 
I found a good 705 in a1983 version btw. One thing that I would suggest is try sharpening it with a DMT stone and leave a course toothy edge on it. It should do the trick.
 
I would suspect there is nothing wrong with the heat treat. It's just not been fully apexed. Customers have brought me those for sharpening and some are a little thicker.
Work at it a little more and remove the burr, then check it. DM
 
The old blades were not configured like the modern blades. They had a swell just before the edge for strength. So, most often, when you try to sharpen the knife you are not actually hitting the edge at all. Take a sharpie and color the very edge so you can see if you are hitting it with the rods properly. My guess is you are not. It is a common problem with older Bucks.
 
That was precisely the problem. I took the edge back a bit, then resharpened it and she works just fine. Thanks for the advice, guys. I was really stumped as I am just getting into the older knives, and am a pretty novice sharpener as well. I may play with it a little more, I think I can get a more consistent edge all the way through, but taking the thickness of the edge down a bit before sharpening definitely did the trick. I'm glad I didn't waste much steel before coming for advice! Now I'm really looking forward to my 503 arriving.
 
Update. The 503 came darn near brand new. I couldn't be happier. I've also got the 501 up and shaving as she should be. Really nice knife, I really dig the black micarta over the newer models with the wood scales. If anyone has a like-new to new pre '81 501 to sell I'd be interested. Thanks again for all the help!
 
Glad you were able to get it sharp. You sure might have a special 503 if it is really black and not burgundy:thumbsup:. I carried one for years when I was working. Great pocket carry knife. Preston
 
pjsjr said:
Glad you were able to get it sharp. You sure might have a special 503 if it is really black and not burgundy:thumbsup:. I carried one for years when I was working. Great pocket carry knife. Preston
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Hey good call! Does that better nail down a date? I'll have to look at it in the sunlight, it looks black in artificial light but I suspect you may be onto something.
 
bloody_pawprint said:
Does that better nail down a date?
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If your a BCCI member the December issue of the newsletter has a great article one the 501.

The maroon/burgundy micatra(Buckcarta) was used 1975-1980. The 1975-77 model has three handle rivets showing, the 1978-80 does not have an exposed center-rocker rivet. Hope that helps. Preston

ETA...440C steel
 
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I would have to very respectfully disagree on HT issues with some older bucks.
David actually helped me a while ago with my 709's. The steel was quite hard and needed a DMT to sharpen...

DMT stones weren't actually available in the early 80s so imagine most people's consternation in trying to sharpen that knife with normal sharpening equipment. Not saying this is what happened in this instance btw but I don't believe ppl should skirt this especially with how well Bos does modern 400 series steel and S30v the latter probbie is the best on the market right now.
 
pjsjr said:
If your a BCCI member the December issue of the newsletter has a great article one the 501.

The maroon/burgundy micatra(Buckcarta) was used 1975-1980. The 1975-77 model has three handle rivets showing, the 1978-80 does not have an exposed center-rocker rivet. Hope that helps. Preston

ETA...440C steel
Click to expand...

Looks like I have a 1978-80. I'm not a BCCI member, but I've seriously been considering it. I actually don't have any good reason why I'm not, maybe it's time that changes. Thank you!

cchu518 said:
I would have to very respectfully disagree on HT issues with some older bucks.
David actually helped me a while ago with my 709's. The steel was quite hard and needed a DMT to sharpen...

DMT stones weren't actually available in the early 80s so imagine most people's consternation in trying to sharpen that knife with normal sharpening equipment. Not saying this is what happened in this instance btw but I don't believe ppl should skirt this especially with how well Bos does modern 400 series steel and S30v the latter probbie is the best on the market right now.
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Was Bos doing the heat treating back then (70's-80) on these 440c steels?
 
pjsjr said:
For your reading pleasure, try here...

http://www.bladeforums.com/index.php?threads/buck-date-codes.716179/page-2#post-17065653
and here
http://www.bladeforums.com/index.php?threads/older-buck-knives-hold-better-edge.1482185/
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And I thank you, friend! I really enjoy reading about the history. Throughout all my knife endeavors, I have learned a fair share about steel, sharpeneing, scale materials, and the like. I always keep coming back to Buck and Case. Buck edging out Case by a chin hair. I just don't seem to be able to beat either, for any amount of money, for my uses. Not saying there isn't better out there, I would not argue that, I just keep being drawn back to where it all really started for me. Thanks again for the links.
 
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