Old axe hardness

C

Chignecto Woodsman

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Aug 2, 2014
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I've noticed a few comments in older threads about vintage axe hardness and some potential testing, but as of yet I haven't seen any numbers. Any idea what hardness older axes may have been, and what steels they were made from? I have seen the Forestry Service (or something similar) recommendations posted so I'm sure a lot fall in that range.

I would mainly be interested in Canadian and Maine axes, but even general thoughts are helpful. Some seem a fair bit harder than the Gransfors steel when I file them. I think it's good to know for these days getting below -10C.
 
I tried to hardness test them as I had access to a hardness tester. I was not able to over come the angle of the heads before I lost access to the tester.

The method that the FS descibes for testing them involves sawing the heads. I was not willing to do that. I still could have over come that but times are changeing. It seems that we are no longer able to use equipment for personal use, even on are own time. It wasn't long ago that I had axes at work that I gifter to friemds and others would bring their axes in for me to rehang and sharpen up at lunch break. Now they could be considered a weapon! They will always be a tool to me and work has got to the point of no fun allowed. My employer is the goverment by the way.
 
For steel many of the Maine makers used "cast steel" or "shear steel" imported from England, though some used the domestic version of the same--especially the closer to the present day you get. The import stuff wasn't necessarily any better than American-made cutlery-grade steel but the public perception was that it was, so the manufacturers used it as a selling point. You're essentially just talking a straight low-alloy carbon steel like 10XX series stuff. Nothing fancy.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
For steel many of the Maine makers used "cast steel" or "shear steel" imported from England, though some used the domestic version of the same--especially the closer to the present day you get. The import stuff wasn't necessarily any better than American-made cutlery-grade steel but the public perception was that it was, so the manufacturers used it as a selling point. You're essentially just talking a straight low-alloy carbon steel like 10XX series stuff. Nothing fancy.
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Seems like the the most popular stamp was "Cast Steel Warranted". Which probably meant there best line of tools.
 
A good file will cut steel up to about 60 RC hardness. The file test is my measure of an axe's hardness and it tells me all I need to know. Many people when filing an axe never get past the oxidation layer and therefor ascribe hardnesses to their axes which aren't true. Only when you're through the oxidation layer and are using good and proper technique is it possible to judge the hardness of an axe by file testing.

In my experience older axes (made say in the 1920's and earlier?) tend to be slightly less hard than top shelf axes made in the 30's-60's. Flint Edges and Kelly Perfects tend to be among the harder axes. I think the hardest I've found was an old Stiletto double bit - barely file-able with my best files. Collin's Legitimus are up there but not as hard as a Flint Edge. Warren made some very hard axes as did Plumb. And of course old Forest Service tools tend to be on the hard side.

A masting axe which I heat treated last year was very soft when I got it. After quenching in oil from red heat it was of course completely un-fileable. Repeated hour long soaks in the oven at increasing temperatures finally got it file-able after reaching 525°F. Of course that temperature may be different for every axe.

Hardness is a compromise between wear resistance and toughness. If your axe is likely to encounter hard knots or the occasional rock (with your pulaski) then it might pay to keep the edge a little softer. Likewise if you chop in cold weather you'll want a little softer bit to prevent chipping.
 
Thanks. Do you think some of these older steels could have had more carbon and were treated for toughness? I deal with a lot of spruce branches and 0 to -15C weather, so that's mainly why I'm interested.
 
We probably put to much emphasis on the steel hardness of an axe and not enough on geometry. Cold temperatures and hard knotts or branches will probably damage any axe bit that is ground to thin for the conditions. I would use an axe that didn't mean all that much to me in the conditions you describe Woodsman. Steel being brittle in the cold is a very real phenomenon. Them no name heads with ridges in the eye and numbers on there cheeks are cheap and plentifull and of are more modern manufacture which probably means a better steel and more consistant heat treat.

As an example of to much emphasis on steel look at what knifes most butchers use. Forschner. They are cheap, comfortable in the hand, touch up is a breeze to keep them sharp. Even though they have to be taken to a steel more often than a more expensive knife. They hit alot of bone, no since in ruining a good knife.
 
A lot depends on what you mean by 'old'. Reading I've done indicate that 18th and 19th century cutting tools were softer than tools we use today. Many axes tempered into the 40s HRc. The same was true for knives. I'd guess that most would have preferred an edge to dent rather than chip. Also, during cold weather, simple steel (10xx) has a ductile to brittle range around 0 F. So -15C is about as low as you want to go using a good ax.
 
Chignecto Woodsman said:
Thanks. Do you think some of these older steels could have had more carbon and were treated for toughness? I deal with a lot of spruce branches and 0 to -15C weather, so that's mainly why I'm interested.
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Get a CT or Truper boys axe, sharpen it up and go to town with it. An occasional roll or crumple is easy to fix, and even if you manage to ruin the axe you are not out much.
 
Chignecto Woodsman said:
Do you think some of these older steels could have had more carbon and were treated for toughness? I deal with a lot of spruce branches and 0 to -15C weather, so that's mainly why I'm interested.
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Yes. Absolutely. Higher carbon steels have greater abrasion resistance even when tempered back to lower RC hardnesses for toughness. Plow discs and harrows were often made of 1084 or 1085 (.84%, .85% carbon), tempered back to resist chipping from rocks. Imagine the wear that those steels were subject to. The old Forest Service spec was, "the tool head of each type of ax shall be forged from fully killed plain carbon AISI/SAE steel containing 0.72 to 0.93 percent carbon....." By comparison Gransfors Bruk uses a steel with .55% carbon. Council's Velvicut line uses 5160 steel with .60% carbon. These don't come close to Forest Service spec.

Chopping spruce knots (or hemlock knots: shudder!!) at low temps is about as tough of service as an axe can experience. You definitely want a little softer steel for that work. See a recent mishap I had.....
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...at-they-were-ment-for?p=14316528#post14316528

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