Old Blades Vs. New Blades

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Davefromva

Joined
May 10, 2012
Messages
14
Hey guys and gals, My name is Dave and I am brand new to the forums.
Quick Bio: Big Outdoor enthusiast. Love Antique weapons.

I have recently decided to start learning as much as I can about Knives and Guns. I have owned several WW2 pistols and about a box full of WW2 Knives and Bayonets that my Grandpa passed down to me. He was a Merchant Marine in WW2 and had to jump ship 5 times in 1 day. I tell you that because I had to hear that story for 14 years until he passed away. I used to dread hearing it over and over, but now, id give anything to hear him tell it one more time...

Anyways, back to the topic. I really like fine quality steel and I consider it extremely important to me when purchasing a knife. I have learned some things about how different blades are made and different qualities recently but there is still a lot of information I do not know yet which I plan to learn from people like you on these forums.
I have been using one of my grandpa's knives, that he passed on to me, for awhile now in the wilderness and I love the knife. It has so much character and I think that is why I enjoy old knives is because of the character they possess. The problem with this blade is it seems to be much softer metal than some of the newer blades I have purchased recently. I understand the differences in hardness of steel and the pros and cons to having a softer metal vs a harder metal. And I somewhat understand what Tempering is(feel free to give a detailed explanation), but I want to stick with older knives. I really appreciate the character found in well used knives.


So to FINALLY get to my point;
Question 1
Can the same quality of steel be found in older "high quality" blades as found in new "high quality" blades? And to further explain my question. Has the technology for making quality steel blades changed much in the past 50 years?

Question2
If this is the case(older steel is just as good), then what would be a good knife to look for that is around 50 years old or just WW2 era that I plan to use in Wilderness applications in the Virginia Mountains?

Thanks again for any help or knowledge yall would be willing to pass down to me. And I'm sorry for the lengthy post, but I kind of wanted yall to get a feel for where I'm coming from and what I'm looking for.
 
No.

Yes.

A WWII era Navy Mark 1 with its full flat grind would make an excellent outdoors knife. An WWII era Western knife, which was designed for outdoors stuff, would also make an excellent choice.

You don't necessarily need super steels to get a good looking functional knife for the woods.
 
I dont see a problem as long as you know how to field sharpen and as long as you dont go too hard on the knife.
 
For a lot of those WWII-era knives, it's not so much the steel but the heat treat. A lot of them were made with 1095, which is a great all around steel for outdoor use if heat treated properly. They produced them fairly soft back then, mid-50s Rc. Less prone to breakage when abused by soldiers in the field, but won't hold an edge as well.
 
lambertiana said:
For a lot of those WWII-era knives, it's not so much the steel but the heat treat. A lot of them were made with 1095, which is a great all around steel for outdoor use if heat treated properly. They produced them fairly soft back then, mid-50s Rc. Less prone to breakage when abused by soldiers in the field, but won't hold an edge as well.
Click to expand...

This. 1095, 1080, etc..... steels that were used during that era are still going to be good. The problem is the heat treat, it isn't uncommon to find knives in the high 30's through mid 50's HRC.
 
I think the uniformity of quality steel has improved over the decades. For example the CPM steels. Also, I think the general knowledge of what needs to be done (heat treat) to prepare the knife blade has improved. Overall the hardness/toughness of quality blades has improved. If there is a historical pattern you like, contact a custom maker to build one for you. Have it differentially tempered to provide good edge hardness and blade toughness. You can get a knife that is as tough as the older knives tempered to 55 HRc but with a edge hardness around 60 HRc. You may want to get a diamond sharpener.
If you don't mind field sharpening and want an inexpensive knife that has been around, then pick up a Green River belt knife and a medium stone. I think their new knife blades (1095) have some added chrome and vanadium and I believe it is harder than one from the WWII era.
 
i want to tote around a 16-inch world war I vintage springfield bayonet. now that's a beautiful knife; made at the crossroads from the romantic era, going to the modern age.

bayonet_m1905.jpg
 
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It seems to me like that bayonet would not be the handiest field, or EDC knife compared to ones with that purpose in their design. Some might modify it but that would be a waste. That is a bayonet and made for that purpose. You would find if you tested it that it's hardened a bit soft for a good field knife, and ground a bit too thick amongst other things.

I'd keep it as the piece of history it is, and buy, or even trade for a more purpose designed knife more suitable to your needs and likes. Just my opinion though. I have a few bayonets myself and can't find much use for them other when someone yells "Fix Bayonets".


:)

Joe
 
Yeah, I am looking for a knife to use in the back country. So if I am going to have to sharpen it a lot then I am going to need to learn how to properly do that and invest in some whetstones. Ray Mears did a nice special on sharpening knives in camp. I think he was using some kind of ceramic stone or something. not sure ill have to watch it again.

What does CPM stand for? and I'm guessing HR means hardness rating? Yeah I'm pretty new to all this so bare with me..
 
I'd hate to see you break a 50yr old knife when you can get something as good or better that is inexpensive to replace. Post up some pics if you have them :thumbup:
 
There is a real argument to be made for an old woods knife, especially if it has been well used. Some old timer used the heck out of it in the woods, with skill, for years. Somehow he managed to do that without it being made out of some sexy supersteel.

A knife like that has proven itself.

Like this one!

fixedeye.jpg


And woods knives of that era like Westerns are not terribly expensive.
 
I agree. I have an old western, and old marbles fixed amongst others. I really like them and they hold their own. The old historical bayonet in great condition is a totally different situation though. It would be almost unrecozniable after the changes needed. In addition a lot of them rc in the 30's or 40's. Not what I'd use to make a field knife.

I guarantee there is someone who is looking for that exact bayonet somewhere. He could easily sell and buy a knife to his liking, or trade foe one at a militaria show.

A few minutes holding that blade would demonstrate it's unsuitability as a field knife. It's not a poor quality knife at all. It's just not a knife. :)

Joe
 
HRc is Rockwell hardness c scale (there are a lot of different measures of hardness). The measurement is not linear. I've seen some newer specialty blades with reported HRc values in the mid 60s. Generally, for a given steel, as the hardness increases the toughness decreases. Steel is made up of a whole bunch of crystals bonded together. Really small crystals. Generally, as the crystal size gets smaller for a given hardness, the steel gets tougher. Steel that is homogeneous will be less likely to develop flaws (weaknesses) in the blade. CPM is a company that makes high alloy steel and cast iron (they still refer to it as steel) used in knives. S35VN will make a blade that is harder, tougher, rust resistant, and cuts better than one made out of 1095. It will also cost a lot more. The process that they use assures homogeniety throughout the steel. The process also allows them to make the exotic steels.
 
Sure. After the steel has been hardened it's brought back to a specific temperature to take some of the hardness out. Steel after hardening is very brittle and must be tempered to toughen it up. The higher the tempering temperature the tougher it'll be but won't keep an edge as long. This is a generality and bypasses many other factors
 
I have heard of people tempering the back side of the knife but not the blade by putting clay on part of the blade you do not want to be heated.. Is this true? and does this have drawbacks to this method?
 
clay is applied on the spine, middle, and close to the edge (but not on the edge itself) prior to heating and quenching. this is called "differential hardening" since different parts of the blade will cool faster (and become harder.) differential tempering follows the same principle, though.
 
So I'm guessing this leads to a Hardened Blade that will hold and edge longer but a flexible back that will not crack as easy if pounded against, right?
 
Davefromva,

You would be very well served by going to the steel sticky on the Maintenance, Tinkering, and Embellishment sub forum of BladeForums. It was written by Joe Talmadge and gives a good overview of cutlery steels in common use.

Bill
 
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