Old, Inexpsinsive and Fun. Sportsman Fixed Blades.

[Amos Iron Wolf]

While I've been getting SAK'd, I have also been getting a little more enjoyment out of some old, cheap thrill knives that had a little heyday of their own.

The Sportsman pattern fixed blades of the 40's and 50's rode on a lot of hips, or so I'm told, with a bit of enjoyment by Scouts who had them. For those not familiar with the pattern I'll repost a pic of some of my meager collection of them. Left to right: Outdoor Sportsman, Utica Sportsman, a Kamp King scout pattern that goes in a pocket on the front of the sheath the Imperial H7 (last) fits in.

I also have an Imperial H6 which doesn't have the fish scaler back the H7 does.

Of these the Outdoor is the thickest and heaviest and has the best scales. The Utica is the next beefier of them. Both of these have solid handles. The Imperials are the lightest/thinnest of the bunch and I think have hollow handles. I picked these up some time back for about $10 each (including the combo) with sheath. None of the sheaths were in top shape. However, the sheaths themselves are a story. The sheath on the Imperial Scout combo was in fact owned by a Boy Scout at one time. I now cause written on the back is Troop 712 and Tommy Henson. And Tom Henson cut into the front. Smart how I figured that out, huh.

The Utica must have been a real companion of someone. The sheath is dark from being carried and used. A worn pattern is stamped into the front. There are two rivets at the top edge of the holster part that show rubbing on them and the stitching was reinforced with thin wire laced in a criss-cross pattern around the outer edge. On the back the name Howard Goodman is stamped. The Utica had been sharpened a few times and the tip is a bit blunted, like maybe the least bit of it was broken and the edge just sharpened up to the blunt spot. Naturally, it and the Imperials have a bit of patina from the years.

I decided that I wanted to put one or two of these back to a good edge. Partially, just to see what kind of edge they would take and how they would cut. Partially because this pattern really gets me (kind of old, Sheffield Bowie look in a smaller size.) And, I really liked the idea of topping up and maybe once in a while using and carrying one of these knives that so obviously had been someones outdoor companions. Just a little more of shaking hands with someone across the generation that I may never know any more of than that they used these knives enjoying the outdoors.

I'll need to make some sheaths for them as I don't want to tear the old ones up any more than they already are. However, I may treat the Mr Goodman's sheath to some rejuvenating oils and replace the keeper strap (one side is broken.) to continue to carry the Utica in.

I sharpened the Utica and one of the Imperials and both cut very well. However, the Utica is a nice balance between thickness and lightness. It took a good edge. I could probably get it even better, but it slices thick leather well and will take a few hairs off the arm. I'll slowly hand stone the point back on to it a little at a time. Also, given how the sheath was obviously given some attention for heavy use, I think it's only proper that it see some action again, if only light use. I like to think Mr. Howard Goodman would appreciate it.

Oh yeah. While I've been lusting after those various knife/axe combos, especially the Western set (I still want one of those someday) I did manage to snag an unmarked hatchet with sheath that, as the seller stated, looks to be an Imperial or Colonial. Hopefully this is in accordance with the rules, I'm posting the link to the ended auction. If anyone can shed light on the maker, please let me know. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280140425652&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=018

As you can see it has the strap on the sheath that couples it with the knife sheath. I have the hatchet sheath currently attached to the Imperial combo sheath. I've seen one or two sets on the bay, but missed them each time.

For those interested, here is a link to a thread over in the Schrade folder. Part way down, Irv has posted a 1958 ad for the Imperials. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=414289&highlight=Sportsman
Also, here is another post in which Codger shows off sweet, mint set. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=403486&highlight=Sportsman

The point of this rambling post is just some of the inexpensive, but great fun I've had with these great old, common man knives. Also the pleasure of bringing a few back to user status.

While I would love to sharpen the Outdoor Sportsman and put together on a sixgun rig, I can't bring myself to do so. The knife has a much cleaner blade than the pic shows. It's still shiny enough that I'd think it was stainless if it didn't say:

Also, it has never had an edge on it. It is still waiting for someone to put that first edge on it. It may not have major collector value, but it's too cool the way it is to mess with. Of the few I have, the Outdoor is the only one that has a swedge on one side of the clip. Kind of a one-sided false edge. I assume this would have been used for de-scaling fish and other scraping chores.

Thanks for a chance to chatter about enjoying these old knives. If anyone had any info to add or stories about some of the old Sportsman knives they've known or used, please share them.
Amos

 

[lotoblades]

Nice knives Amos, it's always great when knives have a little history and character to them and those really do!I really like the looks of that outdoor sportman:thumbup:

 

[knifehunter50]

While I've been getting SAK'd, I have also been getting a little more enjoyment out of some old, cheap thrill knives that had a little heyday of their own.

The Sportsman pattern fixed blades of the 40's and 50's rode on a lot of hips, or so I'm told, with a bit of enjoyment by Scouts who had them. For those not familiar with the pattern I'll repost a pic of some of my meager collection of them. Left to right: Outdoor Sportsman, Utica Sportsman, a Kamp King scout pattern that goes in a pocket on the front of the sheath the Imperial H7 (last) fits in.

I also have an Imperial H6 which doesn't have the fish scaler back the H7 does.

Of these the Outdoor is the thickest and heaviest and has the best scales. The Utica is the next beefier of them. Both of these have solid handles. The Imperials are the lightest/thinnest of the bunch and I think have hollow handles. I picked these up some time back for about $10 each (including the combo) with sheath. None of the sheaths were in top shape. However, the sheaths themselves are a story. The sheath on the Imperial Scout combo was in fact owned by a Boy Scout at one time. I now cause written on the back is Troop 712 and Tommy Henson. And Tom Henson cut into the front. Smart how I figured that out, huh.

The Utica must have been a real companion of someone. The sheath is dark from being carried and used. A worn pattern is stamped into the front. There are two rivets at the top edge of the holster part that show rubbing on them and the stitching was reinforced with thin wire laced in a criss-cross pattern around the outer edge. On the back the name Howard Goodman is stamped. The Utica had been sharpened a few times and the tip is a bit blunted, like maybe the least bit of it was broken and the edge just sharpened up to the blunt spot. Naturally, it and the Imperials have a bit of patina from the years.

I decided that I wanted to put one or two of these back to a good edge. Partially, just to see what kind of edge they would take and how they would cut. Partially because this pattern really gets me (kind of old, Sheffield Bowie look in a smaller size.) And, I really liked the idea of topping up and maybe once in a while using and carrying one of these knives that so obviously had been someones outdoor companions. Just a little more of shaking hands with someone across the generation that I may never know any more of than that they used these knives enjoying the outdoors.

I'll need to make some sheaths for them as I don't want to tear the old ones up any more than they already are. However, I may treat the Mr Goodman's sheath to some rejuvenating oils and replace the keeper strap (one side is broken.) to continue to carry the Utica in.

I sharpened the Utica and one of the Imperials and both cut very well. However, the Utica is a nice balance between thickness and lightness. It took a good edge. I could probably get it even better, but it slices thick leather well and will take a few hairs off the arm. I'll slowly hand stone the point back on to it a little at a time. Also, given how the sheath was obviously given some attention for heavy use, I think it's only proper that it see some action again, if only light use. I like to think Mr. Howard Goodman would appreciate it.

Oh yeah. While I've been lusting after those various knife/axe combos, especially the Western set (I still want one of those someday) I did manage to snag an unmarked hatchet with sheath that, as the seller stated, looks to be an Imperial or Colonial. Hopefully this is in accordance with the rules, I'm posting the link to the ended auction. If anyone can shed light on the maker, please let me know. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280140425652&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=018

As you can see it has the strap on the sheath that couples it with the knife sheath. I have the hatchet sheath currently attached to the Imperial combo sheath. I've seen one or two sets on the bay, but missed them each time.

For those interested, here is a link to a thread over in the Schrade folder. Part way down, Irv has posted a 1958 ad for the Imperials. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=414289&highlight=Sportsman
Also, here is another post in which Codger shows off sweet, mint set. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=403486&highlight=Sportsman

The point of this rambling post is just some of the inexpensive, but great fun I've had with these great old, common man knives. Also the pleasure of bringing a few back to user status.

While I would love to sharpen the Outdoor Sportsman and put together on a sixgun rig, I can't bring myself to do so. The knife has a much cleaner blade than the pic shows. It's still shiny enough that I'd think it was stainless if it didn't say:

Also, it has never had an edge on it. It is still waiting for someone to put that first edge on it. It may not have major collector value, but it's too cool the way it is to mess with. Of the few I have, the Outdoor is the only one that has a swedge on one side of the clip. Kind of a one-sided false edge. I assume this would have been used for de-scaling fish and other scraping chores.

Thanks for a chance to chatter about enjoying these old knives. If anyone had any info to add or stories about some of the old Sportsman knives they've known or used, please share them.
Amos

Great looking knives. I like them myself used them as a child.:thumbup:

 

[camo kid]

Nice knives, and that little hatchet is in the best condition I have seen yet. I love sportsmans knives, at flea markets around here they can be had for under 10$ and they make a good user. Wish I was good with technology, cause i would love to get some pictures of mine posted. Joe

 

[Bob W]

OT:

Wish I was good with technology, cause i would love to get some pictures of mine posted.

I have pretty good luck with using a flatbed scanner to post knife images. While not as 'artistic' as a well-taken photograph, it's easy to get precise images and even zoom in on specific knife parts or features. Plus I don't have to wait to finish the roll of film or get pictures developed.

 

[Codger_64]

Here is one of my older Sportsman patterns, a Kent by Camillus

I find that knowing the story behind a knife makes collecting and ownership more enjoyable. Sometimes we luck out and get the personal story of first purchase and ownership from the original buyer, but most often not. Then it takes a bit of sleuthing to get the full story, particularly with privately branded knives (SFO’s or “Special Factory Orders”). Who made the knife and for whom? When did they make it and what were they trying to achieve during the market that prevailed at the time?

I recently bought such a knife. The stamping is currently not very popular among those who know, or don’t know it’s origins, much like the Sears Craftsman knives were a few years ago. The marking is KENT - N.Y. CITY - U.S.A.



As you can see, this is a fixed blade hunting or "Sportsman's" pattern knife, far less common than the Kent pocket knives.

Now, most of us know that few, if any knives were actually manufactured in New York City, though there did exist a section of one street known as “Cutler’s Row” where many importers, jobbers, and manufacturers had their offices located.

When we look up the mark in Goins Encyclopedia Of Cutlery Markings (1998), we see that he attributes the mark to A. Kastor & Brothers (Camillus) as used on knives manufactured circa 1931-1955 for F. W. Woolworth.





Codger

I posted this in the Camillus forum some time ago. It was subsequently identified by former Camillus historian Tom Williams.

Codger,
That KENT hunting knife is a #5665 pattern that was introduced in 1939.

Tom Williams

And further he added...

Camillus made the #5665 pattern hunting knife for F.W. Woolworth and also made this model under the Camillus name.
The #5665 pattern was introduced in 1939 and the S-Card reads "New Hunting Knife". This was introduced as a civilian model, but was purchased by the U.S. Marine Corps in the early years of WWII before military knives were available.

Tom Williams

So these knives weren't just kid's toys. Even the U.S. Marines used them.

Codger

 

[Codger_64]

Another great inexpensive hunting pattern that preceeded the Sportsman was the Outers.

When the Marble's DeWeese hunter was discontinued in 1930 this knife, the Outer's, replaced it in their line-up. These sold for about a dollar during the Great Depression and were styled after kitchen knives but with stout, full-tang construction. Marble's did not make these after World War II. They were 7 1/2" long and overall with a 4 1/4" upswept (trailing point) blade. The steel was high-carbon. The Outer’s pattern knife used, instead of a cast or flat metal guard, a swelled bolster, again very popular today on custom and some production fixed blade knives.

Although Marbles quit making the Outer’s pattern (except for a 500 pc. Limited edition in 2003), quite a few other cutlerys picked it up, some keeping the basic blade, bolster, and flat slab jigged bone handles, and some opting to modify the pattern with an oval aluminum, steel, nickle silver or brass guard.

Outer's pattern knives from Western, Colonial, Imperial, Queen City and quite a few other makers will be seen, and some as yet unconfirmed knives with the Imperial stamp in script.



This is a bone handled Outers pattern Imperial, but with the script stamp we haven't been able to verify yet. Note the different butt shape, and the blade pattern more like the Marbles Woodcraft style (though not an exact copy).

Codger

 

[Amos Iron Wolf]

Camo Kid, I did the shot you see on a flatbed scanner (Epson Photo type) and just used some loose leather for a background.

Codger, thanks for the info on the Kent (nice scales on that one) and on the Outers pattern. I recall bidding on a Remington a few months ago in a very similar (Outers) pattern. I can't recall the model number at this time. I know we can always count on you to pop up with some interesting and great examples of a lot of these old knives and the related written material. I still love that Sportsman combo, mint in the box you showed in that one thread. On taking a closer look at the Kent I see on the blade it says, "Krome Plate." Makes it even more interesting.

There's some great steel in these old knives and they don't weigh a ton. They sharpen up well and they are just as capable today of giving an outdoorsman great service as they did back then.

Thanks for the contributions and the comments fellas.

 

[Unsub]

I love these old knives and it is great to learn a bit more about them. They were from a time before gps rescue helicopters and cell phones so they were really on their own back in the bush and had to rely on the equipment they carried.
Where is the best place to find old knives like this besides Ebay?

 

[camo kid]

Unsub, check antique stores, flea markets, yard sales, and thrift shops. There are quite a few around, and the only one I have paid more than 10$ for is a Kent that has oak handles. Codger, thats some great info you posted, thanks! Joe

 

[Will Power]

Another great inexpensive hunting pattern that preceeded the Sportsman was the Outers.

When the Marble's DeWeese hunter was discontinued in 1930 this knife, the Outer's, replaced it in their line-up. These sold for about a dollar during the Great Depression and were styled after kitchen knives but with stout, full-tang construction. Marble's did not make these after World War II. They were 7 1/2" long and overall with a 4 1/4" upswept (trailing point) blade. The steel was high-carbon. The Outer’s pattern knife used, instead of a cast or flat metal guard, a swelled bolster, again very popular today on custom and some production fixed blade knives.

Although Marbles quit making the Outer’s pattern (except for a 500 pc. Limited edition in 2003), quite a few other cutlerys picked it up, some keeping the basic blade, bolster, and flat slab jigged bone handles, and some opting to modify the pattern with an oval aluminum, steel, nickle silver or brass guard.

Outer's pattern knives from Western, Colonial, Imperial, Queen City and quite a few other makers will be seen, and some as yet unconfirmed knives with the Imperial stamp in script.



This is a bone handled Outers pattern Imperial, but with the script stamp we haven't been able to verify yet. Note the different butt shape, and the blade pattern more like the Marbles Woodcraft style (though not an exact copy).

Codger

That's an excellent pattern:thumbup: time for a modern revival (Bark River hint..)

Thank you for the interesting information.

 

[Codger_64]

Codger, thanks for the info on the Kent (nice scales on that one) and on the Outers pattern. I recall bidding on a Remington a few months ago in a very similar (Outers) pattern. I can't recall the model number at this time. I know we can always count on you to pop up with some interesting and great examples of a lot of these old knives and the related written material. I still love that Sportsman combo, mint in the box you showed in that one thread. On taking a closer look at the Kent I see on the blade it says, "Krome Plate." Makes it even more interesting.

The Remington? RH4 most likely.


Carrying the DuPont mark, it was post 1928. In 1929, Remington sold out to the Dupont Company. In 1940 DuPont discontinued the Remington cutlery business turning their attention and resources to several U.S. government defense projects. So it was pre-1941. 1929-1940 is a pretty close estimation.

I like these old knives, I guess you can tell. I have several more brandings of this pattern and of the Sportsman. Another Kent as well. I haven't succeeded in laning a Dunlap of this ilk, but I certainly will eventually.

Here is the August, 1923 issue of the connection of Webster Marbles naming of the Outers pattern:

 

[Amos Iron Wolf]

The Remington? RH4 most likely.


Carrying the DuPont mark, it was post 1928. In 1929, Remington sold out to the Dupont Company. In 1940 DuPont discontinued the Remington cutlery business turning their attention and resources to several U.S. government defense projects. So it was pre-1941. 1929-1940 is a pretty close estimation.

I like these old knives, I guess you can tell. I have several more brandings of this pattern and of the Sportsman. Another Kent as well. I haven't succeeded in laning a Dunlap of this ilk, but I certainly will eventually.

Yep! The RH4. Kinda wish I'd gone a little bit more on it then.

Naw, can't tell you like these old knives at all. Looking at some of those ones still in the package you've shown I can just imagine some young outdoorsman, probably a Boy Scout, finding one of those under the tree one Christmas morning back when those were new. Talk about wired! Heheh.

 

[Trent Rock]

I think the top one is Utica??? I couldn't find any markings..I thought it was some cheap, imported "knock off" of the Imperial from the 70's
I think you out bid me for the "matching" hatchet!!!!!
I see both the knives and the hatchets on EBAY alot
U think they are Uticas with the blade markings worn off???

The middle one is Imperial
Is it an H7?

The bottom one is also an H7 i guess
I bought it with a cracked handle thinking it would be a good/cheap way to learn to make and install my own knife scales
Turns out the pins were rivets
I guess I could just drill the rivet remnants out completely with a bigger hole and use bigger pins
The handles were molded plastic
The tang has a "C" stamped on it? What does that mean I wonder??

I couldn't figure out why these knives were so cheap
I guess it's because of the huge production amounts of the 40's and 50's===>large SUPPLY

The middle one feels like it would make a good thrower

 

[ea42]

I've been eyeballing this style quite a bit myself lately. I like the nice clean lines. Here's my only example, an old Hibbard, Spencer, and Bartlett OVB made in England. Very similar if not identical to the old Joseph Allen and Sons models:

[/IMG]

Eric