Old Japanese Sword--ID and Value, Anyone?

Rocinante

Rocinante

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Jul 30, 2005
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The steel portion of the blade is 26.5 inches long. I'm not too sure where to go for info on this one.....if it should be on a different forum, maybe the Mod will move it. Thanks.

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Thanks for any and all info......I might want to put this on e-Bay or another auction in the next few months--so I need all the advice I can get.
 
nice piece, loooks to be ww2 era some nippo officers bushido reminder.
as for value i have no idea. i have a ww2 era nazi ss officers sword although a swastika is missing from the pommel if anyone knows value of these things.
 
No, I haven't. I hate to risk breaking something, but I suppose that's the next thing to do.

So anybody know how it's done without doing any damage?
 
Judging by the pictures, in my experience I would say around the 300 dollar mark. (If the fittings are tight possibly more)

I have seen World War II era swords in better condition go for about 800.00.

If its signed that's a whole different story.

A friend of mine has one that was taken from a Japanese officer, it has the original paperwork from when the officer was captured, with his rank and different information on the document. It has been valued at 13,000.

He also has a folding samurai sword (didn't know there was such a thing until he showed it to me some number of years ago) that he received from an uncle, the uncle years ago used it every summer to cut watermelons (what a crime) I don't have any idea what the value on something like that would be.
 
Rocinante said:
So anybody know how it's done without doing any damage?
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You should be able to find someone in your area who is skilled in this, a fair amount of damage could be done to the sword if you don't know what you're doing.

Judging by the curvature of the handle, it could have been a tachi at some point in time, but I'm no expert.
 
Ok, thanks to all for the responses......and while we wait for me to decide if I'm going to punch out that wooden dowel......is there anyone here who can comment about the blade from the closeups of the point and the one section of blade?

I know that some of these swords show an obvious temper line, or other indicators--but this one seems to show nothing at all. Can we tell anything about the blade from these pics?
 
it's not surprising you can't see the hamon considering the really bad polish, the damage seems typical.... as if someone tried to remove all the oxide using sandpaper or something, thus blurring the lines.

However, many fakers are doing just that to hide poor geometry in the first place.... that said, you might want to ask around and find an expert in your area to personally look at the blade. If believed to be merited you could go for a window polish to see if the blade is any good.

Your choice. Certainly knowing whether there's an arsenal stamp or a signature on the blade would help a great deal (fakers also use old fittings and fit crappy blades to them).

Edit: also take pictures of the tang in good detail and show which side is which. Rust, file markings, signature style, etc all help.
more pictures of the handle wrap and fittings would also help from different angles.
 
Sorry, I wasn't about much yesterday, so missed your reply.

You seem to only have one wooden dowel. One side is marginally slimmer than the other, you push the dowl from the narrow side using something flat nosed and round. The end of round nosed pliers are ideal. Push gently, you shouldn't need much pressure. Now for the clever bit. Hold the hilt in your right fist with the blade upwards and nicely balanced. Now with your spare left hand made into a fist, thump the flat part of your right fist between the sword and your watch strap. This should loosen the hilt. Remove the fittings keeping them in order and keep them the right way round. Look at the metal under the hilt (the tang) for signature markings. Under NO circumstances use anything to clean this area. I can overestimate the importance of this. The coating and any rust is used as part of the aging procedure.

Looking at your pictures, all looks good for an old blade. Yes, the blade has been badly cleaned and the nice sharp lines have gone and the hamon is hidden, but these can be brought back in the hands of a skilled polisher. You will only see the Hamon (temper line) in a polished and burnished blade.

Blades are mass produced and faked in China, but the one redeeming point in your favour...... all that sweat and grease on the hilt bindings made of the correct braid tape. Plus you have Ray Skin under the bindings, and the nice 'cat's paw' scratchings on the Habaki, that nice copper bit at the join of blade to hilt.

I have a similar sword with very rare chain hangers and leather combat cover. It was a surrender sword and I have a picture of the surrender ceremony in French Indo China (now Vietman) and provenance from the Gurkha major that gave it to me. Mine is dated 1942. I have another in a combat scabbard that contains an old family blade made between 1395 and 1425.

It looks like the throat to the scabbard is missing on yours?
 
Well, I hope to give this a try soon. Fighting snow right now.

I didn't realize anything was missing, but the sword does not hold tightly in the scabbard and I suppose the missing throat you noticed is the reason.

Is it ok to store the sword in the scabbard with a light coat of Rem-Oil or should the two always be separated?

Thanks much for all the info.
 
There should be an insert in the mouth of the scabbard and that holds the receptor for the catch which you can see on the sword. This would have locked the sword firmly in place.

Yes, you should keep the sword in its scabbard, but please remove the 'Rem(ington)' gun oil? Go down to the chemist (pharmacy) and buy yourself some Clove Oil. It is made from the stuff your mum used to put in apple pie :) Wipe the gun oil off with a Kleenex. Admittedly, I am teaching you look after a pristine polished sword... but hey one day. Take the clove oil and put a drop of clove oil about every 6" down the blade. Wipe this carefully down the with your thumb with your index finger on the other side of the blade. This is the only time you will touch the blade with your fingers, and you will not allow anyone to touch the blade with their fingers on pain of loosing them and you will tell this to anyone that handles the sword before they are allowed to hold it. Turn over the blade and repeat. Now rub the blade with both finger and thumb until you can feel the the blade has a thin, even covering of clove oil. Now take a clean, Kleenex, and make one pass from hilt to tip. Replace the blade into the scabbard. There is a correct way of doing this, but it takes about 6 months of practice to get it perfect, so we'll leave that. There is a samurai film 'Shogun' with Richard Chamberlain if you want to learn it, or watch any film with Toshirô Mifune who is also in Shogun. You will recognise his face. Click here, and click on the Alltheweb 'Pictures' tab.

http://www.alltheweb.com/search?cat...q=Toshirô+Mifune&rys=0&itag=crv&_sb_lang=pref

This shows you the correct way to draw the sword.

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Just noticed senoBDEC's post, and yes it is a good idea to have a 1" piece of blade polished. You pay for polishing by the inch anyway! This will show you if the blade is a good one. Once the blade has been profesisonally polished it will have a mirror finish and that is where the careful handling begins in earnest.

I just found this site which shows the insert on the scabbard and what it looks like under the hilt.

http://www.johnnyg.westhost.com/swords-japanese.html



We have 30 cm of snow coming here in sunny Toronto from tomorrow at noon!
 
here's the official guide (one of them anyway) of sword care and removal of the handle:
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/care/handling.htm

This is primarily for shirasaya (storage) so.... may not apply. Like I said, experts would know better. From the photos (iffy) I think it should work as well. A rubber mallet should help in loosening the tsuba/tsuka once the retaining pin in the handle is out.

I had no idea they sold clove oil in pharmacies... it's toxic as I recall in pure form. Some light mineral oil will work fine but you DO need to remove it occasionally so it doesn't build up. A very fine hi-definition lens cloth should work. Kleenex and paper tend to scratch up the blade (crumpling up fine paper should help a little).
 
senoBDEC said:
here's the official guide (one of them anyway) of sword care and removal of the handle:
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/care/handling.htm

This is primarily for shirasaya (storage) so.... may not apply. Like I said, experts would know better. From the photos (iffy) I think it should work as well. A rubber mallet should help in loosening the tsuba/tsuka once the retaining pin in the handle is out.

I had no idea they sold clove oil in pharmacies... it's toxic as I recall in pure form. Some light mineral oil will work fine but you DO need to remove it occasionally so it doesn't build up. A very fine hi-definition lens cloth should work. Kleenex and paper tend to scratch up the blade (crumpling up fine paper should help a little).
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Clove oil is an old remedy for toothache, hence stocked in pharmacies.

Using mineral oil is VERY naughty as it can stain the steel, which incidentally is porous due to folding, hence the traditional use of clove oil.

I have forgotten a lot that I know about Japanese blades, but am pleased to see that Clove oil and paper is mentioned on the site you quoted.

4. Abura: A rust-preventive oil called choji or clove oil.

5. Abura-nuguishi: Paper used to spread oil over the blade surface. A piece of wiping paper or flannel will do.

Kleenex is ideal, soft, clean and abrasive free. Silk is better if you can guarantee it is free of abrasive type contamination.

Not happy about recommending rubber mallets either. I have removed a lot of blades and thumping the wrist has worked every time. The picture in your quoted site shows it well.

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Tsubas are fitted by craftsmen who that is their only job. They are a perfect interference fit. Also many are made of cast iron and are brittle enough to be shattered by a rubber mallet. My sword polisher split a tsuba in two trying to make a tsuba I had spare fit a tanto. The technique to make a tsuba fit a blade that is too small is to extend the metal on the tsuba by gentle hammering. Mine has a casting fault.
 
Um... traditional choji oil is mineral oil, with a dash of clove oil in it to give it some odor.

And please don't try to draw a sword the way it's done in the movies without being very cautious - you can damage the saya, or your fingers in the process...

This is one of the best online appraisal tutorials I've found: http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/treatment.html
 
Well, here's a small discussion on the topic at swordforumbugei. Scroll down to Keith Larman's entries. http://www.swordforumbugei.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4171&highlight=choji+oil

Here's another thread from swordforum.com:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54447&highlight=choji+mineral

Also referenced here: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-9102.html
5th post down

As a final point, please read this: http://swordforum.com/sfu/primer/oiling.html

It describes adverse affects when using actual clove oil rather than the mineral oil/clove oil blend.
 
Thanks to all for all the info.

I'll be studying the links and hope to try getting to the tang this weekend.

Rem-Oil is a gun oil and will have to do until I get something better.....and all things considered, I don't think it will do any measurable harm at this point.

Thanks again.

(We've had about ten inches of snow over the past few days......very Christmasy.)
 
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