Old messed up Japanese blade

[mcar123]

I was given this blade last year by a friend who knew I liked knives and swords.
Apparently he got this from his Dad, who got it from an uncle sometime in the late 20's.
It has not been taken care of that's for sure. It was basically falling apart when given to me, the guy thought I might restore it or something.

It looks like it is in the Moroha Zukuri style from what I know...??
The blade is 21 7/8 " and the Nakago is 7 3/8 ". The blade is a little stronger than 1 inch deep, tapering to the point.
The original tsuka (Handle) had been replaced by some kind of antler or bone, which was completely rotted. It had the original parts apparently altered and westernized. After taking what was left of the bone apart, I see the Nakago (Tang) had been filed down (Bummer)to a partial rat tail to accommodate the new handle style and peened pommel. The Habaki ( blade collar), and Fuchi ( Tsuka collar ) may be original.
It appears to be a laminated blade, as I can see some of the Hada and a faint Hamon. It's in bad shape and has rust pits and some chips in it.
The Saya is pretty cracked up too, the lacquer is all cracked, so it was apparently re-covered with leather at some point. Interestingly, when I took the leather cover off, there was some kind of white cloth, badly decomposed and apparently wrapped around the Saya when it was originally covered I assume.

Anyway, I've no idea if I should try to restore this blade or not. Obviously any value was probably destroyed when someone filed away the tang. Any thoughts or ideas on this blade? I'm Sure there are many here with more knowledge about this stuff. Thanks a bunch!

 

[mcar123]

Here are a few more photos of it.

Hope I'm not breaking any rules here, if I am I appologize.

 

[HolyRoller]

Wow, I don't even know where to start.

Moroha-zukuri is a full-length, double-edge blade. VERY rare, and I've only ever seen them in Tanto and Wakizashi legnths.

This is, though pretty beat-up, a Shinogi-zukuri blade geometry.

I can't tell you if the sword is legit, but if it is, it's been repurposed drastically(probably mroe than once...) since it's initial creation. I've seen similar things done to Katana, the tang slimmed down to accept a nut, and mounted as a parade-saber. This is not even close, design-wise.
The presence of the Mekugi-ana(peg-hole) is a pretty good indicator that the blade could be a real katana that was modified, as oppose to some knock-off. Same goes for the dove-tailed slot for the missing Kurikata on the Saya, as well as the Semegane(the metal piece toward the middle of the Saya).

Can you make out any characters, stamping, or any marks whatsoever on the tang?
The pommel-nut, does it remove easily?

The fittings on the blade look cheaply made, so my guess is that the blade was a find, and was cheaply remounted as a tourist piece or something. The leather cover, as well as all the handle-furniture, look like cheapo replacements one might see on Chinese knock-offs, but the Saya and blade are possibly legit.

Any idea where this person was in the 1920's when they got it?

 

[mcar123]

Thanks for the reply !

I called the guy who gave it to me last night, and asked him what he knew about this sword.
He called me back today and said that his Dad got it he was a kid in the late 20's from his uncle, who supposedly got it somewhere in europe? round WWI era. I guess it was just the blade and case, and his uncle either made or had someone make the fittings, from what he was able to find out. Jerry's Dad is pretty old these days.
Any tang markings look to have been filed away in the alteration. The pommel nut looks like it was peened on, I haven't tried to remove it yet.
Like I said, I doubt it's valuable with all the stuff that's been done to it. I just thought it interesting.
Do you think a guy with no experience in restoring a blade should attempt to clean it up?

Thank you for your reply...I appreciate it.

 

[HolyRoller]

Well, you can carefully remove the added fittings, including the Habaki. Even if this one WAS original, it's been destroyed beyond worth. Usually they're thick, and solid copper/brass, soldered together, through some are made thinner with other plates soldered on, in a compound fashion. I doubt this is one of those. Also, the Fuchi looks way too big to me original. If you can, disassemble it and take some photos of the individual pieces at different angles.
Also, it might just be a trick of the light, but I think I see SOME semblance of a Mei(signature) on the tang. If you can, take a rubbing and see if anything shows up.

See if you can get a definite answer as to whether the tang was ground down before or after it was purchased. If originally bought around WWI, it must've been done by whomever owned it before you, as oppose to done by the Japanese for a parade saber(the earliest I've seen this done is JUST prior to WWII).


I highly suggest against ANY modifications to the blade or Saya. Without serious experience, you'd only damage it further from a collector standpoint. Japanese swords are hand-polished on fine stones for sharpening and whatnot. It's a complicated(AND EXPENSIVE!!!) process.

Now, I have one more big point. You have two options when it comes to reconditioning this blade.

Option one: Scrap everything but the blade and Saya. From a Nihonto collection standpoint, they're all that's worth saving. There are polishing services to be had, or even sell it to an amateur for polishing practice. Never know what kind of activity could show up in the Hamon or Hada.
If you have it polished and it's found to be a decent blade with some life left in it, you could remount it in the traditional, Japanese style. The Saya would need replacing(a new Saya is required whenever a blade is polished, due to a change in fit), through the Semegane would definately be used in the new one.

Option two: This sword has been changed since it's initial creation. If you fully accept that it will have little monetary value, possibly even less than it does now, you could attempt to CAREFULLY and SLOWLY file and sand the blade to remove the rust and fix any dings in the edge(like that monstorosity at the top). You can wet-sand it to high grit, then etch with a light acid and you might get the Hamon to show up. You could then mount it with the current fittings, simply cleaning them up and carving a new handle from whatever hardwood you can get your hands on. Maybe replace the leather cover. Overall, restore the sword into how it was recreated by whomever changed it. Though this would be laughed at by any serious collector, this IS a major part of the sword's history, and represents a considerable amount of work and creative effort that somoene put into it.


No matter what you choose to do, your first step should be to head on over to SwordForoum.com and post this puppy over in the Nihonto section. There's a lot mroe knowledgeable people than I, and they'll be able to help you out a lot more.
If you have problems starting an account, PM me and copy and paste this post there for you. New accounts might be on hold due to some recent spam problems.

 

[Yamaderamonk]

Well despite the damage done it can be salvaged. Even a broken blade can be saved in one way or another. I would have it shortened (bottom up, Not tip down), . Don't remove the rust on the Nakago (tang)just leave that. About 2 inches up from the Mune machi and Ha-machi. watch your geometry and measurements go slow and do not use a grinder to avoid a slip and possible tradgedy just a good file.Then go to Usagiya. They are a wonderful source of info, and just for you there is a section on polishing. Go slow with it. Try to remove as little meat as possible. Do not alter the geometry and just take your time. Nice and slow. Follow the directions with Usagiya's instructions on polishing and after some time (possibly months) after you have re-shaped the Kissaki and the pits have been cleaned and invested in some traditional Hazuya finishing stones from Namikawa Heibei you should be looking at something that will fill you with pride. It may not be perfect but of course if you take your time and do your homework it just may turn out to be just that. Perfect and sharp. Next drill the Mekugi-ana, have a habaki made, perhaps you can make the koshiraie yourself or perhaps a shirasaya. I am excited for you. You are very lucky to have been given this project. Very few have ever been given the opportunity. If there are cracks or blisters or other flaws don't dispair, you have a peic of history and remember to possess the blade is to possess a bit of the heart. Good luck! Lucky Bugger.

 

[Yamaderamonk]

I have been looking at the pictures and I have a bit more advice if I may. It is your typical Shinogi-zukuri. However you have something which can be turned into a Shobu-zukuri. If you wanted it to be with a Yokote (line at the tip separating the tip from the main part of the blade) go for an O-Kissaki. That is always classy. However the Shobu style would be smooth and elegant as well. I think seeing the amount of patina could indicate that it may have a core of edge steel so it will hold an edge well. Do not reheat the blade for you will lose the temperline and lose the beauty of the blade along with the clue of its maker and origins. Make sure the blade is perfectly straight before polishing. Once you have finished the initial polishing you will see the Hamon (temperline) and at the end stages of the polishing the grain pattern which will be another clue. Remember to remove as little meat off the blade as possible and with the dimples and pits just clean them patiently filling them with laquer and do not try to work away the deep ones for you will throw off the geometry and make the blade worthless. Nobody wants to see that. Trim the tang the same amount as the shortening and have the cut off peice analized to determine the age of the blade and its construction if at all free and possible. The Japanese Sword Glossery and Usagiya will prove to be indespensible throughout the entire process and I wish you the very best of luck and patience. Just remember it takes a long time to make a blade of this caliber and it should be restored in the same way. All the best. Just take your time.