Old Steel VS New Alloys

T. Erdelyi

T. Erdelyi

Joined
Feb 3, 2001
Messages
32,359
What would you rather have for a blade steel, a well researched, and completely predictable steel like 52100 where it's been around for a long time and heat treat procedures are spelled out to the letter in regards to hardness and wear resistance.

Or one of the new wonder steels/alloys, that seems to be the talk of the forum, with a high Rockwell rating, superior corrosion resistance, and high wear resistance?

Curious to hear Cliff Stamps opinion on this one.
 
Good question.

You said this:

"a well researched, and complpetely predictable steel like 52100 where it's been around for a long time and heat treat procedures are spelled out to the letter in regards to hardness and wear resistance."

I don't want to speak for Ed Fowler, but I bet he would say that working with 52100 isn't all that cut and dry! Ed is working on a book right now on his experiences with 52100. I think with any steel there is still opportunity to experiment and play. Hmm... play is a good word for this. You do have to be systematic once variables have been isolated, however, when trying to discover which variables are the keys to heat treat success, a playful and creative mindset sure helps.

As far as the main point of your question goes, I think it depends on exactly what I am buying. For a "bush" blade, I'd be tempted to stick with tried and true, simpel steels like 1095. CPM3V sounds awesome, but I wonder if it may not be worth it's price given my suspicion that it would be tough to sharpen on a river rock, if needed!

If I were getting a tac folder on a bdgety price, I see nothign wrong with ATS-34. IF I want to spoil myself or whatever, I'd be much more willing to try a super exotic new steel.



Edited to remove 4 words that belong in a paper I am writing, which has nothing to do with steel!
 
I would like to have knives made from both these steels. Actually, I do own one made from 52100. I also have one made from O-1 and another from cable damascus. I am thinking of ordering a knife made from S30V. This sounds like a stainless that I could live with.
 
the new alloys are very nice, and you got to go with the times, just like in car making, sure a good old cast iron block is nice but so is the newer all aluminum ones
 
Yeah it's certainly an interesting time with all the new bladesteels available now.., and of course time will tell which of the newer steels passes the test of time...

Personally I'm sill more comfortable with the old stuff if I really had to rely on a knife that I knew I could keep a great edge on in the wilderness.., but I do have a few friends that hand sharpen 154 CM & ATS-34 very well with a pocket stone...

I'm guessing the new will take over eventually.., and I admit to having tons of interest in the newer steels like SV30 and CPM3V.., but for now I would place my trust more towards the 01.., 52100.., 1095 type steels...




"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
I want to emphasize the point Crayola made about 52100 and extend the idea to any blade steel. If you talk to a number of different bladesmiths or stock removal guys about the optimal way to treat-treat 52100, you may find as many different answers as folks you talk to. 52100 is predictable, if you don't know what you are doing it can make for a really poor knife. Not everyone can or should make knives from 52100. Of course this idea applies to Any steel, new or old, stainless or not.

For any blade steel there is a wide range of potential physical properties that is established in the heat-treatment steps (annealing, normalizing, hardening, and tempering). How to balance sometimes conflicting physical characteristics of a blade steel (hardness, wear resistance, flexibility, etc) is more of an art than a science. There are just to many variables in the equation (blade size, grind, alloy, intended uses, etc) to be able to state what is the optimal heat-treatment for ANY blade steel.

Even Mastersmiths of the ABS do not agree on the need, utility or economy of performing differential heat-treatment. Some smiths feel strongly that in shorter (sub 5 inch blades), differential heat treat is a waste of time, and can actually compromise blade performance in the real world.

That is one of the things I love most about knife making. There are a great number of blade makers out there who are doing everything they can think of to improve their art. This is the main goal of the American Bladesmith Society and its also true of many stock removal knife makers (but not all). The proper and appropriate use of materials is only part of the art of blade making. Just because a knife is made from 420V does not mean it will outperform a knife made from a simple steel like 1084. It all depends on too many factors to make such all-encompassing statements.

I am a carbon steel nut, but I do admit loving my small folders with 420V and Sandvik 12C27 stainless steel. For small folders, stain resistance has its virtues. It's all good as long as the maker knows what he is doing, and the user knows why a particular steel will have its advantages and disadvantages for any particular knife.

Para
 
good question, I plan on getting both... I have a Mayo on order, and am looking into a Fowler... I didn't finish reading all of the theads on this post (or is it posts on this thread?) But the newest Blade mag. has Ed's opinion on this, as well as GREAT descriptions of the quality of 52100 now vs. when he was making them out of bearings made of 52100. Good read.


If you don't own his book, BUY IT!!! I just finished reading it tonight... Not only does he have some great facts about knives, he is also a GREAT writer, very interesting to read, as his writing style is 'easy-flowing' and he really has some great stories in there that any blade enthusiast would love... plus, there is a reflection about a boy named Martin and his realtionship with knifemaker Ray Appleton that will make you get at least a lump in your throat, or if you're like me,actually bring tears to your eye. VERY COOL, VERY SPECIAL story.

-Dave
 
Gentlemen: Thanks for the kind thoughts. 52100 steel made now is better than ever, it has a lot of research and performance evaluations behind it.

The knifemaker is the key or gateway to the steel, even the best steel can result in a poor knife. I strongly believe that testing done in the makers shop as the knife is made is the most important variable. If a knife maker choses a poor steel, he will know it real soon. It takes time for a knife maker to realize it is the steel and not him, but when he finally realizes the steel and not him that is at fault, a tremendous growth in knowledge follows. I learned a lot working with scrap, when I found the holy grail, good quality steel, all the previous learning began to make sense.

Consistency is probably the most critical element in steel, then all comes together. We are very lucky, we have the best steels and equipment ever available to the knife maker today. It is up to us to make the best of it.
 
Steel is where it all begins. The greatest maker with all the skill and knowledge in the world still has to work within the limits of the properties of the steel. When you consider that the abilities of steels varies tremendously, it is obvious that what a knife is going to be made out of is critical to how it can be crafted.

The first thing I look at is what is the knife going to have to do, and in what enviroment. For example in a large outdoors bush knife, the edge mainly has to be able to handle chopping impacts. A high hardness is necessary for resistance to denting and impaction. Also a high toughness is required to prevent frequent fractures. All of this can be achieved by something simple like 5160 / 52100, with a 58/60 RC edge.

Now does CPM-3V (for example) offer any advantage? Well it is far more wear resistant, but that doesn't get you much of anything at all, as there is next to no wear on such work. Even cheap steels like what is found in something like a Tramontina have in excess of the wear resistance needed for wood work (for most normal woods).

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=198896

Is CPM-3V any harder, well not really. While you can push it past 60 RC, the toughness plummets as you do so, the optimal working hardness would seem to be the same as for 5160/52100, in about 58/60 RC for the edge, for such high impact work. Thus there is no real advantage in regards to edge impaction or deformation.

Is CPM-3V tougher, impact wise at that RC. Yes, no question about that. However such simple steels are easily tough enough, even at relatively high RC they still tend to get mashed rather than chip apart. So for the most part you are not going to see any benefit here as well except in extreme cases.

So there are advantages to 3V, and thus if everything was equal I would go with it, but I would still be very pleased with the performance of the simpler steels, and you are just seeing a slight refinement in any case for that type of knife. If we were talking a "one knife does everything" situation, then there are significant advantages to 3V.

Specifically, I generally carry a very light use utility knife, which I use on a lot of precise cutting, so I want the edge to maintain a very high level of sharpness. For this type of knife a high alloy steel like CPM-10V offers significant advantages over the simple steels.

In this case the wear resistance is a significant factor, and the wear resistance of the CPM alloys is many times to one over the simple steels. As well you can get 4-6 points more hardness which means a much higher resistance to edge rolling, and thus a crisper edge for much longer.

However if a makes doesn't know how to maximize the steel by crafting the correct geometry, you are far better off with an inferior steel in a superior geometry. That being said, there are lots of makers who have an excellent understanding of geometry and high end steels, so this isn't a real problem.

-Cliff
 
Hey cliff, funny how you picked the 3 steels to discuss that I am considering for my next Custom. Im looking for a Do everything Bowie, in the 11" blade range, What steel do you suggest for this? It doesnt bother me if its hard to sharpen I just want something to hold a sharp edge a long time (whithout the cost of the steel being to crazy)
Thanks for any input you have to offer.
 
I'd pick the forged 52100 anyday over the newer steels, though I haven't tried them all. The last steel I used was 420V and it was almost impossible for me to sharpen on a stone, though I finally had to use a belt sander. Man, was that steel hard!! Just my two cents.
 
If I was just using it for wood craft I would not have a really strong incentive to look past something simple like 5160, for reasons noted in the above. However if I wanted to do other types of cutting with it, I would lean towards 3V because of the much greater wear resistance. I would not be concerned about hard to sharpen, assuming the maker grinds it to the right shape, with a solid heat treatment, this won't be a problem.

-Cliff
 
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