Old steel?

F

fishbulb

Joined
Sep 18, 2001
Messages
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Is it just me, or has anybody else noticed that steel objects made decades ago seem to handle rust much better than modern ones. I can think of several recent examples that I have seen.

Much of the machinery where I work is pre-WW2 and almost all of it has a coat of rust on every exposed surface, but this rust is just on the surface and doesn't affect function at all. However, most of the steel products we make (just normal tool steel) will rust out in a matter of weeks if not protected.

I have several vintage tools that were my grandfather's in my toolbox, and all of them get used. They years have imbued them with the same kind of smooth surface rust I see on the machines, yet when the whole box got drenched in a rainstorm most of my newer tools were ruined but the old ones weren't even bothered.

And just try to find a rusted through Packard or Deusenberg.

Does anybody know why this occurs? Has anybody else noticed it too? I'm thinking that the explaination has something to do with older steel (due to lower-tech production) having a lower carbon content than modern steels, making them resistant to rust. Just a guess.
 
I too have tools that belonged to my Father and Grandfather, that have the look about them that you describe.
I also have my Father old fixed blade boy scout knife that has had little to no care for many years that is in great shape. He was a scout in the late fortys, and it had to spend at least twenty years in a tool box in the barn befor I discoverd it in the early seventys.
I will be interested to hear what is said on the subject.
 
Some of the steels made today are better than ever. There is also some that is not of high quality. We may not be considering equal steels or Possibly the way the old steel was worked into finished form is influencing the steel's ability to resist corrosion. Greg Mete provided some insight after a couple of weeks in wet conditions that has encouraged Bill Burke and I to undertake some experiments. The theory is that, more refined or smaller grain steel may be more resistent to rust. We pretty well know that a fine finish on steel is more resistent to corosion that a rough finish, but how about grain refinement? Our experiments are just starting and no conclusions can be drawn at this time. I find your observations are very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
 
Ed, that is veery interesting. It makes me wonder about CPM3V. This steel has a very fine grain structure and does resist rusting better than a lot of other steels, but when it does start to rust it can be quite catistrophic. The rust will spread quickly and eat holes out of this metal in no time. I don't know if this is because of the powder metallurgy technology used to make this steel, but it is a very fine grained steel that rusts to beat the band.

Something else for you to think about.:)
 
Thanks Keith: I bleieve that there exists a careful blend of grain refinement, chemistry and heat treat in relation to corosion in non stainless steels that needs to be explored. Other influences also exist, such as chemical treatment after manufacture. WWII,rust was greatly reduced in aircraft machine guns by steaming them in a carbon tetrachloride bath, then soaking in an oil preparation at the fume point of an oil blend for an extended time. The steel 40 after years of storage still felt oily. Our potential levels of performance are limited only by our vision.
 
Thanks for the suggestions. I find it interesting because it is so counterintuitive that a low-tech tool steel made before my dad was born can outperform modern wondersteel in corrosion resistance.

I would like to see the result of somebody making a "modern" knife out of vintage steel. There's plenty to be had cheap, just stop by a junk yard or abandoned factory.

I actually remember hearing about something similar, I believe the Chase-Durer watch company was making cases and bracelets out of "reclaimed weapon systems of decomissioned B-52 bombers". Whatever that means.

Seems like something one of you knifemakers out there might want to look into.
 
I need to add a warning to the thoughts on the cartontetrachloride steam bath. The fumes from that chemical can be very lethal, there are other de-greasers that are more safe.

I made knives from old steel for years and learned a lot. Old steels can be fun to work and relatively inexpensive when building on our craftmanship ability. BUT when it comes to pushing steel to the limit, there is nothing better than the new steels. The steel industry has made tremendous advances in the last few years. There are lessons to be learned from the old, but apply those lessons learned to the new steel,the challenges become much more predictable and the opportunities almost unlimited.
 
Those are some great points Ed. One of the advantages/disadvantages of modern technology is that steel is usually made, just as good as it needs to be and no better. Just as the top end steels are better than the steels of the past, the bottom end steels may well be worse, being remelts with sometimes uncertain contaminants.

I've noticed wide variability in ATS-34 corrosion resistance, and that's all made by Hitachi so you'd think it would all be the same. The hot rolled bars are definitely finer grained (as rolled) than the shear plate material, like that you get from Admiral. With the same formulation Crucible's 154CM is finer grained (again as rolled) even though it is all produced in plate form, probably because it is double rolled, the second at 90 degrees to the first. The resulting hardened steel from all three of these processes, using the same, carefully controlled heat treating (Paul Bos) results in blades that have more or less visible grain, regardless of finish, and are more or less corrosion resistant, depending on how much grain is visible.

I've recently been Ferric Chloride etching almost all of my blades, except those I mirror polish of course. This seems to do two things, but I'm just guessing here. One, it dissolves the most corrosion prone materials from the surface of the blade and two, it leaves behind protective oxides in their place. The black oxide (assuming that's what it is) is stable and seems to block the formation of red oxides we know as rust. Once the etched surface is brushed out to a fine grit, it assumes a nice, almost velvety patina that is hard, works well and is more corrosion resistant, regardless of the steel used.

There is no doubt in my mind that finer grain is a highly desireable quality no matter what steel is used. The old industrial forging processes may have achieved that more often than today's, make-it-cheaper castings and high speed rolling mills that are designed to do in one pass what used to take several trips back and forth through the rollers.

Interesting subject for sure...
 
I have noticed that several kitchen knives that I have that dates back to the 30's and 40's, that are carbon steel will not rust very easy and will sharpen very well. They are only prone to rust on the bevel part of the edge and it takes quite awhile before they will rest there. Always wondered about these kitchen knives, why they won't rust. I also have a large slip joint K-Bar folder that is carbon steel, that was made about 1951-52 and it is the same way.
 
I think that upon careful consideration of all the variables and evidence that this thread has produces, as well as my own personal experiences there is only one logical conclusion.

They just don't make 'em like they used to.

Or maybe not...

I would be interested to know if anybody has any information on kinds of vintage steel, if any were recognized. For example, sixty years ago was there a grading/naming system as there is today with different alloys having proprietary names such as Aus-8 or D2? Does anybody have any historical metallurgy experience? I think that this is a subject that deserves further research and discussion.

Oh yeah, just to keep this knife related: "Folders are cool"
 
My thoughts contained in the above posts were the result of many conversations with Rex Walter, a metalurgist who has been of utmost help in our work with 52100. He has examined, and understands the metals of yesterday and today. He describes the history of the metals industry in such manner that one cannot help but find it vibrant. I wanted to give him the credit he has earned.
 
Fishbulb, your whole post is knife related. Many threads on this forum are about steel. In fact I would think that the members of this forum find steel quite appealing. Just a guess mind you.

I have to agree with Ed that the steel of today is far superior to that of days gone by. It is much purer and made to much higher standard. You also have far more to choose from and I kind of like having those choices.
 
Wouldn't it be something if it turns out that the old stuff is just as good as the new stuff if it is properly heat treated and cared for?
Though I doubt we'd ever hear it if it were true because a whole cottage industry has been built around the idea that it isn't and a whole lotta hype has been sold on the latest and greatest methods.

Dave
 
Dave,

If the "old stuff" was just as good, you'd have a hard time reproducing it. Sure, a good lab can tell you what is in a given piece, but I'll bet the QA/QC of the time wasn't good enough to really keep the composition constant. So, which steel would you copy?

Besides, I'll take stainless over carbon any day! (Here we go with the stainless v carbon debate -- stand back! :D )

-Al-
 
Personally I didn't intend to imply that the old steels were better than the new or that carbon was or was not better than stainless. Just a curiosity about why the old carbon knives that I have don't rust very easy. I have noticed that this is more prominent in old buther/kitchen knives.
 
As I understand the practice years ago was to buy steel by the makers brand name. In others words you bought Jessop's Silver Steel or Smiths Excelsior Chisel steel, etc. Makers had their own formulas and recomendations for steel for a particular use. Steel users tended to be brand loyal consequently. It was hard to cross reference steels from one maker to another. On the subject of old steel VS new, I have heard that much modern steel is actually declining in quality due to the use of recyled steel that gradually acumulates trace levels of copper and alumininum from recyled car bodies etc. This would affect the simpler carbon steels more so than the more complex (and expensive) high alloy streel I would think. But it is true that the "purer" the iron, the less corrosion affects it.
 
I think you are correct in how steel was purchased in the old days. Purchasers probably didn't have a clue as to what made up the steel the used. They just found something they liked and stuck with it. During World War two Bo Randall started using Swedish steel because he found the quality more even than it was with the auto spring steel he was using at the time. It seems in those days that consistant quality was more important than the makeup of the steel.

I find with todays high carbon steels tool steels that are used to make knives, that if you get the grain structure quite small and either give it a real good polish or etch it, that with moderate care you will have a blade that does not rust.
 
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