Old vs New: Am I missing something?

S

SharpAsaSock

Joined
Apr 14, 2023
Messages
4
I'm 58, and like most young boys I grew up with an affinity for basic weapons like knives. I received my first "real" knife when I was 12 or 13 from a neighbor with whom I had been working (as much as a 12 year old can) in his custom cabinetry shop. After seeing me with my POS Japan pocket knife that could barely cut thick air, he gave me his Navy issue Kabar, an ancient oil stone and taught me how to use and care for both. I still have them and can still shave with the Kabar. It ain't pretty, but good Lord does it do the job! I use it as my gold standard against every other knife I touch.
I've never had a lot of money to spend on sundries, So my pocket knives were always kind of disposable. The Kabar was always my "serious" blade. About 20 years ago I lost my go-to pocket knife (a decent exec style single blade... No idea the maker) and wound up buying a Camillus 864 in Gatlinburg. I still have it and still really like it, but thought I'm probably missing out on a whole world of great blades just because I am so out of the loop.
About a year ago I started surfing EBay for Camillus knives after having lost my 864 for a couple days. I have purchased a couple dozen (including Santa Fe Stoneworks Models) and have since branched out a bit. I saw a lot of mentions of CRKT, Kershaw, Bear and Son and a few others. I began picking up some lower priced items based on web reviews (CRKT Fossil, M16, M10, Pazoda, Spider Tenacious and similar) expecting at least a good knife... I have been disappointed each time. The fit, form, function and general feel in the field is urine-poor. I like the Fossil for it's style, but I would take my 60+ year-old Kabar in heart beat if I thought my life might depend on it. I would even carry the Camillus 864 into the woods over newer brands.
All of the Camilus blades take and retain an edge well. None of the CRKT or Kershaw take a fine edge easily. I can certainly get them good enough to cut cardboard, but not a single one will give a clean shave like the Kabar.
I use EZE-Lap hones, Arkansas stones, Ceramic rods and (when all else fails) my ancient oilstones. I believe I'm being pretty fair to all of these blades. Am I missing something? Some technique I am not aware of?
 
Welcome to the forum!

I can get a decent edge on the bottom of certain ceramic coffee mugs, but you need to start with at least some edge first.

I use diamond stones now, haven't used stones in years except for the Shun stones for the very fine kitchen knives.

I do get shaving sharp on most of the new knives, including offshore examples from Kershaw and CRKT.

You and I are almost the same age. I had Bucks when I was younger, then got into Case and various slip joints.

I hope you enjoy the forum, you will see a lot here!
 
I would imagine there is something in your technique that is lacking or that you are not spending enough time making sure you are creating a clean edge or not deburring properly. It's hard to say without more information about how you are sharpening.

The type of steel will differ in the time it takes to remove material from the blade as well, so if you are used to softer, more basic steels that sharpen up real easy and are trying to sharpen harder or more carbide rich steels you may struggle if you expect to get it sharp just as quickly.
 
Although I enjoy several more modern knives, the old Camillus are awesome knives. In my personal opinion better than many of the newer (cheaper end) alternatives.

Some of the cheaper end new blades can be soft and difficult to debur more so than the blades on the older knives you're mentioning.

If you haven't tried stropping with a firm leather or something like basswood you may want to try it to remove any burr that might be holding on. Something as simple as very firm cardboard backed on wood can work if you want to try it without spending anything.

Without know what type of sharpening stones you use or the types of steels on the newer knives ... it is possible if you bought high carbide steels that are more wear resistant and the stones you have aren't able to to sharpen them as well as a diamond stone or CBN.

You may want to list the steel types to get more specific advice from the members who know the best options and can help answer any questions.

Welcome ro the forums and best of luck with it.
 
First problem I would point out, is shopping for knives on Ebay...

Not that deals can't be found, and that auction sites don't have their place, but sadly there is a HUGE market for already cheap PRC made, namebrand budget knives, sold even cheaper, or same price, on secondary markets... Yes, without rigid copyright protections, if big kershaw and crkt can sell PRC made knives for $25-50, then absolutely there is a blackmarket available for non-authorized dealers to buy knockoffs in bulk, that may cost half the price to produce, and still sell them at similar rates via ebay, flea markets, local gun show tables, etc. for massive mark up profits.

Sadly, trust and a handshake doesn't go far in the corporate world today, and an internet search with a click to buy goes even less of a distance. Money be damned, while we all a like a good deal to save a few bucks, using reputable and authorized dealer sites goes a long way to help combat counterfeits, (and they have better return policies in place). My first suggestion would be to look at the manufacturer websites of knives that you like, and search for authorized dealers close to enough to visit in person to actually feel the knives in hand, the old fashioned way, even if it costs a tad bit more, and if that isn't an option, only buy from authorized dealers, not the secondary Market where counterfeits really are a real thing and a rampant problem, that takes a real keen eye and understanding to see through, where they thrive off the unknowing consumer who is simply looking to save a couple dollars off normal msrp.

There's a reason 17 different authorized dealer sites that I check will have the exact same model knife marked within $1-2 of each other far more often than not, until a sale comes around. (I do shop around for deals). If that same model knife, "new", is available on the auction sites from an unauthorized dealer, it's likely a counterfeit. If it is available "new" for a significantly discounted price, than it is almost assuredly a counterfeit product. Every major manufacturer I know of has a search list function on their website to locate authorized dealers.
 
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You are missing something: decent heat-treat.

I've owned 20-some CRKT products over the years, and HT has never been consistent. Even when you do get a Columbia River "sharp", it doesn't stay that way for very long.

I'm convinced they run their steel at very low hardness to save money on the heat-treating cycle, and whoever is doing quality inspections grabs one off the final assembly table, gives it a couple flips and approves it for shipping.

You mentioned Kershaw and Spyderco, which is harder to figure: Kershaw has a good reputation for overall quality, and Spyderco even more so.

Like others have said, there is a huge counterfeit market. If you're looking for a knife that can live up to your Kabar, you'll be much happier with what you get from authorized dealers.

As a bit of a shameless plug, and a starting point, the following link:

Paid Dealer Members List

If you have a paid Dealer's Level Membership and do not appear on this list, please let us know. We can add your name and website. Thank you for supporting the Bladeforums Community. Remember guys, shop with these guys first, give the businesses that support your hobby your business. It makes...
www.bladeforums.com www.bladeforums.com

Is a list of retailers who also have a presence here on Bladeforums. So you know they're legit.

My favorite site to ogle is Knifecenter, because their filtering tool has so many options.

I have another pet conspiracy theory, which has to do with the way manufacturing contracts work between the States and overseas. I'm convinced that some of those factories save the knives that fail quality inspection, and resell them through another agent. But then, I'm very cynical.
 
Lots of good feedback from you all, thank you! I do believe the points on tools and techniques could have a lot to do with my observations, and the point on secondary market trust factor is well taken.

I'll do the smart thing and spend more time here learning from the more experienced among you. I'm sure there's a while lot I can pick up!
 
SharpAsaSock said:
I'm 58, and like most young boys I grew up with an affinity for basic weapons like knives. I received my first "real" knife when I was 12 or 13 from a neighbor with whom I had been working (as much as a 12 year old can) in his custom cabinetry shop. After seeing me with my POS Japan pocket knife that could barely cut thick air, he gave me his Navy issue Kabar, an ancient oil stone and taught me how to use and care for both. I still have them and can still shave with the Kabar. It ain't pretty, but good Lord does it do the job! I use it as my gold standard against every other knife I touch.
I've never had a lot of money to spend on sundries, So my pocket knives were always kind of disposable. The Kabar was always my "serious" blade. About 20 years ago I lost my go-to pocket knife (a decent exec style single blade... No idea the maker) and wound up buying a Camillus 864 in Gatlinburg. I still have it and still really like it, but thought I'm probably missing out on a whole world of great blades just because I am so out of the loop.
About a year ago I started surfing EBay for Camillus knives after having lost my 864 for a couple days. I have purchased a couple dozen (including Santa Fe Stoneworks Models) and have since branched out a bit. I saw a lot of mentions of CRKT, Kershaw, Bear and Son and a few others. I began picking up some lower priced items based on web reviews (CRKT Fossil, M16, M10, Pazoda, Spider Tenacious and similar) expecting at least a good knife... I have been disappointed each time. The fit, form, function and general feel in the field is urine-poor. I like the Fossil for it's style, but I would take my 60+ year-old Kabar in heart beat if I thought my life might depend on it. I would even carry the Camillus 864 into the woods over newer brands.
All of the Camilus blades take and retain an edge well. None of the CRKT or Kershaw take a fine edge easily. I can certainly get them good enough to cut cardboard, but not a single one will give a clean shave like the Kabar.
I use EZE-Lap hones, Arkansas stones, Ceramic rods and (when all else fails) my ancient oilstones. I believe I'm being pretty fair to all of these blades. Am I missing something? Some technique I am not aware of?
Click to expand...
You’re missing something
 
I think the most likely explanation here is just that you are used to traditional knives, which tend to be better cutters. You're also probably just not used to sharpening the new knives yet, but a lot of the more modern designs (not all) like CRKTs and the like make their blade grinds thicker, especially if they use cheap stainless which needs the extra thickness to hold up to use. For example, a Spyderco Paramilitary 2 is a knife that a lot of people think cuts really well with its broad, full flat ground blade. Its ok in my book, but it still doesnt cut as well as a Case Trapper because the Trapper has thin blade stock and a good hollow grind. The Case wont stand up to stabbing car hoods or "batoning" through sticks or whatever sells these days, but it works better at what knives are made to do, ya know... to cut things. lol
I say if the old carbon steel knives work for you then why change?
 
I can certainly relate as I am getting on in years now and have an affinity for the old blades. There is a lot of room for discussing different things to improve your results, but what comes to mind for the quickest fix is standard solid sharpening technique. If you don't sharpen a lot, and you sharpen free hand like I do, you tend to lose the ability to always be consistent on your sharpening angles. The answer is sharpen more knives to develop and keep the muscle memory. Also, all oilstones are not created equal. Modern oil stones for the most part are not good - even many old oilstones were not good. Pike and Norton stones were always good as are some of the stones from Dan's Whetstones or Hall's Pro Edge stones (which went out of business), at least for their translucent hard stones. Modern soft Arkansas stones are not very good compared to the old ones - even the one's from Hall's and Dan's for the most part.
Using a leather strop with a good abrasive for the final step will also work wonders for your process. I use Yellowstone abrasive compound on leather glued to a piece of wood for the final polishing and it makes the end result something to behold. You might consider adding that to your regimen as it is one of the least expensive improvements a sharpener can make in their process.
 
I think most "modern" folding knives will bother you both in ergonomics and most every other way if you are used to older mostly carbon steel traditional knives. Rarely will you find a newly designed knife with as thin a blade as a traditional style slip joint and the thickness behind the edge with rival the overall thickness of the blade on a traditional. Quick opening, light weigh, modern materials and ability to withstand abuse have replaced most features of old style knives. Crkt for example has been making their blades thick and soft to withstand the general abuse of none knife people buying them at Walmart for a decade or two. Funny thing is some of the better feeling and better cutting knives I have purchased over the last few years have been cold steel brand, if you can get passed the silly marketing. Now it is probably too late to be a new fan as they have changed ownership and seem to be on the way out. The cold steel voyager is a very nice knife that feels better than it looks and has a great heat treat that makes it a pleasure to use and sharpen. I hope you find a modern folder that will give you the pleasure of a bygone time.
 
I also doubt it's your technique. I agree that it's most likely about edge geometry and steel as thebrain and CVamberbonehead state. There are better steels out there and many quality knives that can achieve shaving sharp, but you'll have to dig.

That said, you're in the right place. Stick around here for a while and you'll soon have an idea of what will fit your needs.

Good luck!
 
Daniel Dorn said:
I also doubt it's your technique. I agree that it's most likely about edge geometry and steel as thebrain and CVamberbonehead state. There are better steels out there and many quality knives that can achieve shaving sharp, but you'll have to dig.

That said, you're in the right place. Stick around here for a while and you'll soon have an idea of what will fit your needs.

Good luck!
Click to expand...
You might be right, so don't take this the wrong way but the number of knives mentioned and not being able to get shaving sharp with any of them makes me suspect technique and/or sharpening equipment is more likely the culprit. The primary problem wasn't with edge retention as I read the OP's post. For example the Tenacious should be pretty easy to get shaving sharp even if the edge may not last as long as some people want.

Even if you have really thick geometry you should be able to shave hair if you have done a good job sharpening. You might struggle more going through something solid though.
 
SharpAsaSock said:
I'm 58, and like most young boys I grew up with an affinity for basic weapons like knives. I received my first "real" knife when I was 12 or 13 from a neighbor with whom I had been working (as much as a 12 year old can) in his custom cabinetry shop. After seeing me with my POS Japan pocket knife that could barely cut thick air, he gave me his Navy issue Kabar, an ancient oil stone and taught me how to use and care for both. I still have them and can still shave with the Kabar. It ain't pretty, but good Lord does it do the job! I use it as my gold standard against every other knife I touch.
I've never had a lot of money to spend on sundries, So my pocket knives were always kind of disposable. The Kabar was always my "serious" blade. About 20 years ago I lost my go-to pocket knife (a decent exec style single blade... No idea the maker) and wound up buying a Camillus 864 in Gatlinburg. I still have it and still really like it, but thought I'm probably missing out on a whole world of great blades just because I am so out of the loop.
About a year ago I started surfing EBay for Camillus knives after having lost my 864 for a couple days. I have purchased a couple dozen (including Santa Fe Stoneworks Models) and have since branched out a bit. I saw a lot of mentions of CRKT, Kershaw, Bear and Son and a few others. I began picking up some lower priced items based on web reviews (CRKT Fossil, M16, M10, Pazoda, Spider Tenacious and similar) expecting at least a good knife... I have been disappointed each time. The fit, form, function and general feel in the field is urine-poor. I like the Fossil for it's style, but I would take my 60+ year-old Kabar in heart beat if I thought my life might depend on it. I would even carry the Camillus 864 into the woods over newer brands.
All of the Camilus blades take and retain an edge well. None of the CRKT or Kershaw take a fine edge easily. I can certainly get them good enough to cut cardboard, but not a single one will give a clean shave like the Kabar.
I use EZE-Lap hones, Arkansas stones, Ceramic rods and (when all else fails) my ancient oilstones. I believe I'm being pretty fair to all of these blades. Am I missing something? Some technique I am not aware of?
Click to expand...
So glad that you have a knife you cherish for so long.

About folders currently, stuff like Buck 110 or Cold Steel Voyager are the way to go if you want awesome knife for a good price. There's way more and you'll probs get to know about them if you stick around here. Stuff in more modern steel is more expensive.

It also shows differences in generations. You'd depend your life on your 1095 Ka-Bar USMC, yet I'd bet mine on my CPM-3V AK47 field knife.

You use oil stone while I use diamond. I'm 27yo BTW.

And I'm willing to bet, in 10 years from now the norm will be Magnacut and God knows what kind of sharpening equipment will exist.

Everything is progressing day after day. It's impossible to keep track and always have newest and greatest. But it's sure fun to lurk and see what's new.
 
Two things I noticed while sharpening cheap knives on stones and rods:

Many a times they come with uneven bevels/edges (heck I've gotten a few benchmades like this too. Spyderco is usually pretty good). Make sure you're actually hitting the edges when you're sharpening and not the "shoulders" of the bevel due to angle difference. I once got a SOG with roughly a 12 degree on one side and a 30 degree on the other...

Some cheaper knives (especially CRKT knives) are really soft and will often burr/roll to the other side with only a few strokes. I may start with multiple strokes on one side, but will always end with alternating strokes and closely examine the edge for rolls/burrs and get rid of it. I can get crappy surgical steels and pakistanseum to shave hair this way.

Lastly, if there are stones you've used for a long time, make sure they're still flat. I had a neighbor use 20$ Amazon stones with a noticeable crater in the middle from years of use...

Ok maybe three things. Anyway, I'm no pro at all, just my thoughts on sharpening over the years; I'd like to think I'm slightly above mediocre.

Good luck!
 
Once again, lots of great feedback!
I do agree that I am likely to be happier with vintage - or at least vintage style - blades. I have some Uncle Henry, Frontier D. E., and even a really cheap China "stainless" that feel great in my hand. I can shave with China blade, but only until I use it to open some mail then it's just meh.
CVamberbonehead hit on a lot of good points. Among them the idea of buying a Buck 110. That model and the 120 were ones I always drooled over. I have the means... I should follow his advice!

Still, I at least want to learn about new tools and techniques so I can care for the newer blades I have acquired.

At some point I will upload some images of my meager collection. Nothing terribly impressive, but they do make smile!
 
Dergyll said:
Two things I noticed while sharpening cheap knives on stones and rods:

Many a times they come with uneven bevels/edges (heck I've gotten a few benchmades like this too. Spyderco is usually pretty good). Make sure you're actually hitting the edges when you're sharpening and not the "shoulders" of the bevel due to angle difference. I once got a SOG with roughly a 12 degree on one side and a 30 degree on the other...

Some cheaper knives (especially CRKT knives) are really soft and will often burr/roll...
Click to expand...

Dergyll, Bingo on both counts!
Particularly on the CRKT blades I've been putting most of my practice into. I went back to basics and paid closer attention to my technique and results at each stage. I've been using diamond hones to get to a "serviceable" edge then usually finishing with a stone. Even when I tried finishing with diamond I would use it as though it were a stone - leaving the hone stationary and drawing the blade. Either way I found myself falling back into old habits and dropping the back of the blade like I do for all of my old carbon blades. Since my eyes aren't nearly as sharp as they once were, I couldn't see that I was mostly riding on the shoulder of the edge and effectively trying to reshape the grind. Thankfully I have access to an Optical Comparitor.
Once I increased the blade angle and checked that I was on the entire face of the grind I quickly got much better results with my old stones. But you were right, the two sides were either ground or reshaped to differing angles. A couple of light final draws on either side resulted in a shaving edge worthy of taking a strop to.

I still have plenty to learn. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge!
 
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