Older cars better

J

jackknife

Joined
Oct 2, 2004
Messages
17,580
I happen to be inheriting a 1991 Volvo 240 with less than 40K on the clock. I know this is the real milage because the old boy who owned it was a resident of a retirement community near us. He did not drive much.

I had some concerns over the age, not miles, on some things like the belts and hoses, timing belt, and so on. The body is in great shape and the interior is like new. The guy at the Volvo dealership wanted to buy it but I'm going to hang onto it for a while.

The main jist of this is while talking to him about Volvos, (having never owned one I wanted to know if there were any weak areas to keep a watch on) he told me that like alot of cars the older ones were better because they were simple. So much for the idea that technology has made things better. He told me that most of the new cars have gotten so complex that they have had a very high raise in the amount of electrical and computer problems.

I guess thats what it comes down to now- buy a car and you get computer problems.

I miss the days when I could go out and change the points and plugs, squirt some gumout down the carb and be ready for a trip. And if I hade trouble on the road the nearest autoparts store had what I needed to get back on the road.
 
I'm tired of people Whining and cheesing about "computer problems" in cars.

Aside from lowering emissions, the computers dramatically improve performance and make cars significantly safer. The computer modules used in cars today are very well-built and very reliable.


When computers first appeared in cars in the mid 80s and early 90s, there were both functional and reliability issues. This is true.

The early computer assemblies weren't entirely up to the stressful environment of the automobiles. Computer modules often failed. The connectors used especially proved unreliable.

When these early, simple computers encountered input they couldn't understand, they quit. If the intake air temperature sensor failed and started producing non-sensical data, the computer and the engine with it would simply quit.

But, in the course of 20 years and many, many warranty returns, automobile manufacturers have perfected the engine control module. The physical build quality of the units is now quite up to the automotive environment and these new computers are designed to "fail safe."

Several months ago, my Mercedes put a message on its screen saying, "ESP Failure." ESP is Enhanced Stability Program and it is Mercedes' name for a combination of anti-lock brakes, traction control, and stability control. But the car didn't stop working. Oh, you could tell it was a dramatically different car, but it still basically drove. When I got it to the shop, they looked at the trouble codes stored in the computer's memory and knew exactly what the problem was, a lateral acceleration sensor that had failed. So,

1) The computer makes a huge difference in the driving characteristics of that car.

2) When the computer started to receive bad data from one of its sensors, it didn't quit. It kept going the best it could.

3) When the car got to the dealer for service, the computer basically told them what was wrong saving hours of troubleshooting.



A couple of years ago, that same car put a message on its screen saying "Service Engine Soon." It seemed fine. But I dutifully took it in for service. The computer reported to the mechanic that one of the spark plugs wasn't firing perfectly every time. In fact, that plug had failed to fire six times. The computer had recorded the date, time, and all details about each event. Imagine that? The computer can detect single mis-fires of a spark plug! Amazing. I never felt or noticed a thing. But the computer knew. And could a mechanic have ever found that without the computer? No. In fact, by catching this sort of thing modern computers actually improve the reliability of cars.

A 1991, though? That's sort of right on the edge. Especially in a Volvo, that car doubtlessly does have a computer-controlled ignition. It was hard to meet emissions requirements in a new car by 1991 without the precision afforded by computers. But that could still be an earlier design computer.
 
And now, of course, someone will post saying, "My 2005 just had its computer fried."

Well, it happens. You can always find an example of anything. If you let me look around, I can probably find you an example of a 2005 with an engine block that's cracked too. What happens to any one car doesn't matter. Statistically, engine blocks are very reliable, and so are modern computer modules.


As my sainted father used to say, "A sample of one doth make fools of us all."
 
Maybe these computer controlled cars have some spyware or viruses. I think I'm gonna call GM and offer my services.....for a "modest" fee, of course. :)
 
computer controlled cars aren't too bad, you can tweak em just like the older models, I have a 1976 Vette (no not chevette) no computer, no catalytic converter, and true dual exhaust... runs like a champ and I have a real "hot" (high voltage ignition) setup in it so it would always pass the emissions at the tailpipe, it's fun to drive. then there is the '97 GMC pickup and the '00 Tahoe, and well I have done a bit o' tweaking there too, and plan on doing more and I can get even better performance both in outright gains in speed and horsepower and torque, but also in the gas mileage area.. the Tahoe gets 17 mpg and am workin on the pickup to get as good or better...

just depends on what autos you are into for what you buy, or keep
 
jackknife said:
I happen to be inheriting a 1991 Volvo 240 with less than 40K on the clock. I know this is the real milage because the old boy who owned it was a resident of a retirement community near us. He did not drive much.

I had some concerns over the age, not miles, on some things like the belts and hoses, timing belt, and so on. The body is in great shape and the interior is like new. The guy at the Volvo dealership wanted to buy it but I'm going to hang onto it for a while.

The main jist of this is while talking to him about Volvos, (having never owned one I wanted to know if there were any weak areas to keep a watch on) he told me that like alot of cars the older ones were better because they were simple. So much for the idea that technology has made things better. He told me that most of the new cars have gotten so complex that they have had a very high raise in the amount of electrical and computer problems.

I guess thats what it comes down to now- buy a car and you get computer problems.

I miss the days when I could go out and change the points and plugs, squirt some gumout down the carb and be ready for a trip. And if I hade trouble on the road the nearest autoparts store had what I needed to get back on the road.
Click to expand...


With the fellow at the dealership warning you about a "very high rise in the amount of electrical and computer problems" One might tend to accept that he knows what he's talking about.


Thomas Zinn
 
that volvo might not have a gps in it or a camera in the rear but, like most people know, volvos are built like tanks. i dont know about the knewer ones but yours (odds are) is one tough car. i once saw a old volvo get into accident. the volvo ran right into the back of this car going at a decent speed, fast enough that it pushed the car a bit. anyone that has seen a fender bender knows that when this happens the front end of the car is pretty messed up. the volvo broke a light and bent the grill a little bit.
 
there's a reason why cars crumple when they get into an accident. it's to reduce the shock. simple physics.

you increase the time of the impact and you reduce the force of the impact.

cars are made to crumple.
 
I remember when my kid was in high school, he rented a "how to buy a used car" video. (about 20 years ago). The "mechanic" who did the thing told people to avoid "these new cars with all the computers", as they would fry and you'd be out thousands.
We've gone through dozens of computer-controlled cars at our department over this time period, and the only malfunction I know of was when mine got hit by lightning. (And it fried well and truly!)

When was the last time you saw a bunch of dead cars during a big rainstorm with lots of standing water? Used to be common stuff; hit a puddle and zap, you'd be on the shoulder, trying to dry out your distributor.
 
I bought a 240 model new in '87. The Volvos back then were great cars and the 240 was a proven model that had been in production for quite some time. The only thing to watch out for on the 240 is that they seemed to go through front brake pads pretty quickly. That's the only weak spot I can remember.

I wouldn't even think about selling a 240 with only 40,000 miles on it. You'll never get near what the car is worth. Have a major service done on it and replace any parts that are just old and tired. Drive it reasonably, change the oil every 4,000 miles and you've got a car that should hit 150,000 miles without any major problems.
 
I think there's a place for both. Older vehicles can run very well and dependably, and their (relative) simplicity gives me at least the illusion that I have some idea how they work.

On the other hand, it's hard to argue with 100k between tune-ups, instant diagnostics, and all the other modern amenities. I remember doing all kinds of mental gymnastics (unsuccessfully) trying to figure out how to make a big V-8 run on four cylinders for efficiency. Now there are cars that switch back and forth between four and eight cylinders automatically! Pretty impressive.
 
Keep in mind how things were done before computers. My sainted father had a early 80s Chevy Impala for many years. This was one of the last American cars to pass rising emissions standards without a computer. That thing had a total of about 300 miles of vacuum hose under the hood. Everything was vacuum-controlled with all these mechanical servos and contraptions. Most performance-related problems were easy to fix: just throw a bucket of soapy water on the thing, look for the bubbles, and replace the leaking vacuum hose or cracked part. It was quite an elaborate system.
 
Now there are cars that switch back and forth between four and eight cylinders automatically! Pretty impressive.
Click to expand...

What impresses me the most on my car is the degree of integration, how what used to separate systems, brakes, engine, transmission, suspension, steering, all work together. Particularly, the interface between the engine and transmission is perfect. You can shift this car manually if you want to, but why? You simply can not do better than that computer can. It is fundamentally perfect. It never misses a shiftpoint by more than 1 RPM. It's really amazing to see this car do some of its special behaviors such as jackrabit start and panic stop. Slam the accellerator to the floor and the computer gets the message: go as fast as possible as quickly as possible. And everything, engine, transmission, and suspension, are coordinated to accomplish that with the skill of a drag race driver. Conversely, slam the brake to the floor and everything is coordinated to stop the car as quickly and with as much control as possible. In the several times I've activated the panic stop mode for real (and without thinking about it), I have been seriously impressed with how fast and controlled that car can stop.

So, personally, I would not go back. The computers make modern cars way better.
 
Volvo 240s are one of the simplest and easiest cars in the world to fix. Period. I've owned several and worked on MANY. Like all machines, they have their issues (always carry an extra fuel pump relay), but when it comes to reliable and dependable, the 240 figured it out long ago. Not only that, but the parts prices rival that of cheap Chevies. If you don't need any super complex accessories and like the utilitarian looks and ergonomics of the 240, I can't recommend it any higher. I've worked on several with over 300k and seen some with 400k. Look on the net, and you'll find some in the millions range. They certainly are the poster child for KISS, IMHO.

Plus, you'll find yourself constantly showing off the amazingly tight turning radius (like almost all Volvos), even after years of ownership... ;)

Here's a pic of my current one. Got for a hundred bucks. :)

240_1.jpg



Mark
 
The new computer stuff does have its problems. There are reliability issues with all the sensors and stuff they have in them, and sometimes mechanics are too ready to blame things on a bad sensor and not fix the actual problem, or too ready to go hunting the actual problem when its just a bad sensor.
We had a car that wasn't shifting correctly (automatic transmission) took it in and they assured us it was just a shift sensor. They replaced the sensor and said everything was in good shape.A week later we drove it to the dealer with gears grinding and no reverse to get a new transmission. The computer, sensors, and code reader didn't do any good becuase they were too ready to blame it on a sensor and not look for the actual problem.

I also know several people who have had problems with camshaft sensors on Ford deisels. The camshaft sensor shuts the engine down if it senses the camshaft is out of time. I don't know anyone who's had a camshaft get out of time, and I'm kind of doubtful you could shut the engine down fast enough to do much good if it did. But the sensors were bad and would shut the motor down as you were cruising down the highway, or when the truck was parked idling. Service techs would come up with all kinds of excuses, right down to refusing to to beleive that anything was happening at all. "deisels don't die sir, you must be mistaken" :rolleyes: They finally got it straightened out and replaced the sensor and all the problems were solved. So the sensor really did more harm then good.

For your average person any more its good stuff, no one works on their own vehicles anyhow, and you can generally get better performance and sometimes trouble shooting is easier for the mechanic. But for folks who do work on their own vehicles, all the new technology does limit the amount of stuff you can fix yourself.
 
Gollnick said:
I'm tired of people Whining and cheesing about "computer problems" in cars.

Aside from lowering emissions, the computers dramatically improve performance and make cars significantly safer. The computer modules used in cars today are very well-built and very reliable.


When computers first appeared in cars in the mid 80s and early 90s, there were both functional and reliability issues. This is true.

The early computer assemblies weren't entirely up to the stressful environment of the automobiles. Computer modules often failed. The connectors used especially proved unreliable.

When these early, simple computers encountered input they couldn't understand, they quit. If the intake air temperature sensor failed and started producing non-sensical data, the computer and the engine with it would simply quit.

But, in the course of 20 years and many, many warranty returns, automobile manufacturers have perfected the engine control module. The physical build quality of the units is now quite up to the automotive environment and these new computers are designed to "fail safe."

Several months ago, my Mercedes put a message on its screen saying, "ESP Failure." ESP is Enhanced Stability Program and it is Mercedes' name for a combination of anti-lock brakes, traction control, and stability control. But the car didn't stop working. Oh, you could tell it was a dramatically different car, but it still basically drove. When I got it to the shop, they looked at the trouble codes stored in the computer's memory and knew exactly what the problem was, a lateral acceleration sensor that had failed. So,

1) The computer makes a huge difference in the driving characteristics of that car.

2) When the computer started to receive bad data from one of its sensors, it didn't quit. It kept going the best it could.

3) When the car got to the dealer for service, the computer basically told them what was wrong saving hours of troubleshooting.



A couple of years ago, that same car put a message on its screen saying "Service Engine Soon." It seemed fine. But I dutifully took it in for service. The computer reported to the mechanic that one of the spark plugs wasn't firing perfectly every time. In fact, that plug had failed to fire six times. The computer had recorded the date, time, and all details about each event. Imagine that? The computer can detect single mis-fires of a spark plug! Amazing. I never felt or noticed a thing. But the computer knew. And could a mechanic have ever found that without the computer? No. In fact, by catching this sort of thing modern computers actually improve the reliability of cars.

A 1991, though? That's sort of right on the edge. Especially in a Volvo, that car doubtlessly does have a computer-controlled ignition. It was hard to meet emissions requirements in a new car by 1991 without the precision afforded by computers. But that could still be an earlier design computer.
Click to expand...

Well I for one like th ecomputer. However with my mini and other BMW product you are locked in to a BMW dealership raping you for service. Or you get a GT1 computer system for maintenance. for 15,000. All the GT1 is a laptop with a special program and cables.

So while you like the integration you cannot work on it for yourself. Also if something goes wrong in one spot it can effect the whole system. Which you can't work on.

Paul
 
How many other "high tech" things that you own do you repair yourself?

Have you ever fixed your own TV set? When I was a kid, if the set stopped working, you took the back off, pulled all the tubes out, carted 'em down to the drug store, and tested them on a big machine that resembled something from a Sci-Fi Horror Movie mad scientist's lab. Then, when you found the bad one, you handed it to the drugist who looked in his cabinet to see if he had that one or not. If he did, joy of joys, we'd be watching again tonight. If he didn't, it'd be at least two weeks to order in the part. But, the modern TV is not so easy to fix.

What about the computer you're using right now? Somethings you can do yourself, maybe put in a new memory module. But have you ever replaced a capacitor on the motherboard by yourself?

Even knives now are getting beyond what average person can fix himself.

The modern car has evolved into a high-tech thing. It's been pushed that direction by safety, emissions, and Cafe laws, but also by consumer demand. Maybe you can still change your own oil and such. But it's time to admit that the modern car has evolved beyond what the average backyard mechanic can handle.

The modern TV is not so easy to repair as that old "works in a drawer" RCA we had when I was a kid (imagine, today, trying to sell a product so unreliable that its easy of service access was a marketing feature). Fortunately, the modern TV is so reliable that service is hardly every needed. Heck, it's hard to find a TV repair shop these days.

The modern car is also highly reliable and breakdowns that do occure are, on average, fixed much easier and much faster than ever before. Just as the modern TV does not have to brag about its ease of access for service, the modern car doesn't either. And I find that a valuable and acceptible tradeoff.
 
I don't know anything about Volvos, but I worked as a GM technician through the 1980's into the early 1990's. I will be the first one to tell you that the microprocessor was a huge step forward in the automotive industry. Without them you wouldn't be enjoying the fuel economy and low emissions that we currently experience. Remember when 20mpg was really good?

I agree that it does limit the amount of work the do-it-yourselfer can do.

Tom
 
I own a Ford Crown Vic police interceptor..computer controlled, fuel injected, electronic ignition big block...and it serves me faithfully. All I have ever done is keep the regular maintenance on it..and I drive this baby HARD. It's at 160k miles and still only drinks a quart of oil/3k miles. I am thankful I never have to wrench or scratch my head wondering whats the matter now. It starts and runs the same as the day it was new. I live in N. Michigan...and I put this car through sub-zero weather..to all other extremes.
I also own a '67 Ford F-250 big block pick-up and a '66 396 S/S El Camino. Yes...they are very easy to work on...and thank God..because I am always having to....with these old beauties...it's always something to adjust..or try to figure out. Trust me..the older ones have new wiring front to back..new this,...new that...any help...no...wish I could find a computer for my old classics. :grumpy: :D :yawn:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top