Old's guide to sharpening ( The Fundamentals )

O

old4570

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Ok ! Seems like people are having issue and not understanding the fundamentals ..

A) Get yourself a marker pen so that you can see where you are removing material !
B) It matters no what method off sharpening is employed ... You have to do the basic's !

Basic 1 = Match the bevel you have ( Use that marker pen )
Basic 2 = Sharpen one side till you create a burr ( It is proof that you have reached the apex of the edge )
Basic 3 = Do the other side the same ..
Basic 4 = Refine the edge (?)
Basic 5 = Remove the burr

I know , sounds easy right (?) , because it is ! People tend to over complicate simple things .
Do the basic's and you can't help but make the knife sharp .
Video very soon .


So lets talk about the video :

The sharpening methos employed is a budget ( CHEAP ) guided or fixed angle system . It's cheap N nasty and does the job .
Mine is mounted to a board to stop it from being rickety !

Sharpening is via Diamond inserts .. I started with a very old / worn 180 grit insert ..
Then to finish off the edge I went to a newer 320 grit diamond . ( Yeah I like diamond ) .

First sharpen one side till you feel the burr / then sharpen the other side till you feel the burr ..
Then refine the edge ( Go bling if you like ) ..
And then remove the burr - I do this by alternating sides as sharpening till the burr is gone / minimized ! ( as much as possible - depends on the steel your working on )

The video is not that long , and the knife is sharp .. If it all looks simple , it's because it is .. So don't complicate something simple .
And it matters not the method employed - The founding principles remain !

Match the edge
Sharpen to a burr
Remove the burr
Sharp knife
 
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old4570 said:
Get yourself a marker pen so that you can see where you are removing material !
Click to expand...

This is good advice.

My advice is that you are never done learning. There is always more to know. Don't allow yourself to get complacent or too reliant on any single gimmicky contraption or system... unless of course it is freehand.

Please learn freehand. 😁

edit: hey, this is interesting


Has anyone else seen that trick before? I haven't. Pretty nifty. I never thought of marking my fingertips to use as an angle guide. That's clever.
 
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Gimmick ?

If something works , it's not a gimmick !

What counts = Results !
Are ABS breaks a gimmick ?
How about airbags ?

Sorry , If the pudding tastes good , it's good ! How it was cooked does not matter !

Do what makes you happy ! And disregard everything to the contrary ! ( As long as it's legal of course )

As for me , I do what is quick / easy / and produces results .. The most important thing is the results .. ( And speaking for myself - If the guided system produces the best results - that's what I am going with )

Anyone care to put it to the test ? ( Edge retention test ) Because beyond sharp is " Stays Sharp "
 
Training wheels on a bicycle can work to stop you from falling over, but you'll never learn how to actually ride one until you take the training wheels off. That's what all these silly contraptions are analogous to. They're just training wheels. If you become overly reliant on them, then you will never learn how to actually sharpen a knife. You'll just be stuck with your training wheels like a child.

Out in the real world when your knife goes dull, there will be no training wheels. You can either learn how to sharpen a knife freehand or you can be left helpless. These silly contraptions of yours are too impractical to carry with you. You are stuck using them only at home. You can sharpen a knife with a simple pocket stone, or the bottom of a ceramic mug, or the top of a car window, or a stone from the creek. All of these will work, but you have to actually know how to sharpen a knife in order to use them.

Your attitude of "only the results matter" is insufficient. You cannot rely on gimmicky gadgets. That is being lazy. That is fostering ignorance. That is keeping you stuck like a child. It is holding you back.
 
Guy McVer said:
Training wheels on a bicycle can work to stop you from falling over, but you'll never learn how to actually ride one until you take the training wheels off. That's what all these silly contraptions are analogous to. They're just training wheels. If you become overly reliant on them, then you will never learn how to actually sharpen a knife. You'll just be stuck with your training wheels like a child.

Out in the real world when your knife goes dull, there will be no training wheels. You can either learn how to sharpen a knife freehand or you can be left helpless. These silly contraptions of yours are too impractical to carry with you. You are stuck using them only at home. You can sharpen a knife with a simple pocket stone, or the bottom of a ceramic mug, or the top of a car window, or a stone from the creek. All of these will work, but you have to actually know how to sharpen a knife in order to use them.

Your attitude of "only the results matter" is insufficient. You cannot rely on gimmicky gadgets. That is being lazy. That is fostering ignorance. That is keeping you stuck like a child. It is holding you back.
Click to expand...
Why are you sprouting nonsense ?
Obviously you have an exe to grind , go grind it some where else ..

I will use the superior method !

A) I used to hand sharpen for 30+ Years
B) Then I discovered a better mouse trap = Guided or fixed angle sharpening
C) What makes it better ? = Edge retention !

I know , some people don't care about edge retention ! But , I do ! So I will use the superior method for me !
I'm not pushing anything on people ..

But I won't put up with people rubbishing other methods of achieving the same thing or a superior thing !
Do what makes you happy , and let other people do their thing !
Again , I am happy to put it to the test ! So put up or .................. go grind that axe some where else !
 
Sandpaper or a brick can also work. But again, you have to actually know how to sharpen a knife to effectively use them. Training wheels won't get you that far. Saying that the results are all that matters is not going to get you there. Not if you only know how to use a cumbersome gadget that won't fit in your pocket. You have to also learn freehand, or you don't actually know how to sharpen a knife. All you know how to do is use some special gadget that won't always be there.

What's the idea behind putting "the fundamentals" in the topic title anyway? That's not what I'm seeing here at all.
 
Guy McVer said:
Training wheels on a bicycle can work to stop you from falling over, but you'll never learn how to actually ride one until you take the training wheels off. That's what all these silly contraptions are analogous to. They're just training wheels. If you become overly reliant on them, then you will never learn how to actually sharpen a knife. You'll just be stuck with your training wheels like a child.

Out in the real world when your knife goes dull, there will be no training wheels. You can either learn how to sharpen a knife freehand or you can be left helpless. These silly contraptions of yours are too impractical to carry with you. You are stuck using them only at home. You can sharpen a knife with a simple pocket stone, or the bottom of a ceramic mug, or the top of a car window, or a stone from the creek. All of these will work, but you have to actually know how to sharpen a knife in order to use them.

Your attitude of "only the results matter" is insufficient. You cannot rely on gimmicky gadgets. That is being lazy. That is fostering ignorance. That is keeping you stuck like a child. It is holding you back.
Click to expand...
I don't think that is fair.

For most people in first world situations, the guided system is all they need. Yes, there are very serious limitations to when and where you can use a guided system, but the results, at least for someone who doesn't have the time or patience or will to learn to proficiently sharpen freehand, can be great for a relatively small learning curve.

I think freehand is a more flexible method and worth the effort. I agree it gives you a skill-set that is superior to just using guided systems but at a cost in time etc. I don't agree that using a guided system gives you better edge retention or sharpness. If that is the case, it just means your freehand technique is lacking.
 
Guy McVer said:
Sandpaper or a brick can also work. But again, you have to actually know how to sharpen a knife to effectively use them. Training wheels won't get you that far. Saying that the results are all that matters is not going to get you there. Not if you only know how to use a cumbersome gadget that won't fit in your pocket. You have to also learn freehand, or you don't actually know how to sharpen a knife. All you know how to do is use some special gadget that won't always be there.

What's the idea behind putting "the fundamentals" in the topic title anyway? That's not what I'm seeing here at all.
Click to expand...
Fundamentals don't depend on sharpening METHOD ( you can't see that )
They are universal .. True for all forms of sharpening ..
Be it hand sharpening / guided sharpening / machine sharpening !
The method does not matter .. The result is what matters ..
Sharpening to the apex and creating a burr by what ever method ( Can U understand that ? )
Removing the burr .. By what ever sharpening method .

If you do not understand such basic principals , you should not be telling people anything ! These are the fundamentals people need to understand , not matter what sharpening method they chose !
I am not pushing a method on people , I am pushing basic understanding of what needs to happen when sharpening by any method .
Call it a UNIVERSAL truth !

Let go your prejudice ! Im trying to help people , not troll them !
The method in the video is simply how I roll , no one needs to roll the same way .
Use a wet stone / use a diamond plate / use wet & dry / use a machine / use a guided system = I don't care !
But please , understand the basic fundamental goals you need to achieve to make your knife sharp !

Do I need to repeat myself ?

By any means
1) Match the bevel
2) Sharpen to the apex ( make a burr )
3) repeat on the other side
4) Refine the edge
5) Remove the burr

Do these things by any means , and you will have a sharp knife ..
As for prejudice ............ Well .... Can you sharpen that ?
 
If you want fundamentals, then they are not explained here. I agree that the fundamentals of sharpening a knife are universal, but you're not teaching the fundamentals. You are just encouraging the use of a crutch. Something that can be done thoughtlessly. Something which allows one to be oblivious to the fundamentals. There are no fundamentals here.

If you want a crutch, great. This is the topic for that.
 
chalby said:
I don't think that is fair.

For most people in first world situations, the guided system is all they need. Yes, there are very serious limitations to when and where you can use a guided system, but the results, at least for someone who doesn't have the time or patience or will to learn to proficiently sharpen freehand, can be great for a relatively small learning curve.

I think freehand is a more flexible method and worth the effort. I agree it gives you a skill-set that is superior to just using guided systems but at a cost in time etc. I don't agree that using a guided system gives you better edge retention or sharpness. If that is the case, it just means your freehand technique is lacking.
Click to expand...

it's hard to free hand as accurately as with a guided system :
Again ( how many times now ) I am happy to put it to the test ...
I have tested it to my satisfaction ... But I am happy to challenge anyone who wants to put their hand sharpening skills against the Guided system or a Machine .

How does it go , put your money where your mouth is ( it's a saying ) . And I am happy to do so ..
Again ..

I hand sharpened for 30 years .. I make no claims at being amazing at it . maybe I was rubbish ? There was no one to compare against except myself !
Now I will sharpen anyway I like ..
By hand / by Machine / by Guided Systems .. Which ever method proves to be the money . And the variable is the knife and it's steel .
Sometimes the guided system rules . sometimes the machine rules and hand sharpening never rules ! ( But that's just me )
 
Guy McVer said:
If you want fundamentals, then they are not explained here. The fundamentals of sharpening a knife are universal. You're not teaching the fundamentals. You are just encouraging the use of a crutch. Something that can be done thoughtlessly. Something which allows one to be oblivious to the fundamentals. There are no fundamentals here.

If you want a crutch, great. This is the topic for that.
Click to expand...
How silly are you , no I get it = Very !
 
old4570 said:
it's hard to free hand as accurately as with a guided system :
Again ( how many times now ) I am happy to put it to the test ...
I have tested it to my satisfaction ... But I am happy to challenge anyone who wants to put their hand sharpening skills against the Guided system or a Machine .

How does it go , put your money where your mouth is ( it's a saying ) . And I am happy to do so ..
Again ..

I hand sharpened for 30 years .. I make no claims at being amazing at it . maybe I was rubbish ? There was no one to compare against except myself !
Now I will sharpen anyway I like ..
By hand / by Machine / by Guided Systems .. Which ever method proves to be the money . And the variable is the knife and it's steel .
Sometimes the guided system rules . sometimes the machine rules and hand sharpening never rules ! ( But that's just me )
Click to expand...

Proper hand sharpening can be just as good as guided or machine sharpening. I can take machine sharpened factory knives and make them sharper by hand. I'll put my money where my mouth is and take your challenge.
 
old4570 said:
it's hard to free hand as accurately as with a guided system :
Again ( how many times now ) I am happy to put it to the test ...
I have tested it to my satisfaction ... But I am happy to challenge anyone who wants to put their hand sharpening skills against the Guided system or a Machine .

How does it go , put your money where your mouth is ( it's a saying ) . And I am happy to do so ..
Again ..

I hand sharpened for 30 years .. I make no claims at being amazing at it . maybe I was rubbish ? There was no one to compare against except myself !
Now I will sharpen anyway I like ..
By hand / by Machine / by Guided Systems .. Which ever method proves to be the money . And the variable is the knife and it's steel .
Sometimes the guided system rules . sometimes the machine rules and hand sharpening never rules ! ( But that's just me )
Click to expand...
I'm not interested in a pissing contest. If you want to believe I'm full of it and my edges are horrible, go ahead, makes no difference to me.

If what you are suggesting is it's not possible then you should check out some youtube videos (that you seem to be fond of) and look up Big Brown Bear(Deadboxhero on here), Michael Christie and many others who are getting hair popping edges that retain sharpness even after some pretty hard use, all freehand.

As I said, and as you also suggested: your freehand technique and/or sharpening gear you were using was lacking. You profess to get noticeably better edge retention now using a guided system, so that much is obvious.

Look, guided systems are great. They allow the user to get some awesome results after a fairly short learning period, but as has been mentioned they are potentially limited in use(where and when) and the skills you learn are limited. I used one a few years ago and I found it helped to fine tune my freehand skills though.

Freehand is like learning how to really cook vs heating up something that someone else has cooked. Learning how to put together a recipe you like takes some time to get right, but it's easier to heat up leftovers from the chef down the road.
 
I freehanded for a long time and got mixed results
then I got a lansky, and still mixed results.
Came here, learned about using a marker on the edge and magnification to take a better look. Shortly after that, it clicked.

I still use a fixed angle system, especially when I need to reprofile and edge or take out a chip - its so much easier to keep the same angle and I can do it almost second nature.

but for quick touchups and routine sharpening, its much more convenient to sharpen free hand and not have to have a system. you apply all the same principles, you just don't have a guide for the stone so it takes some practice to get the angles and the feel right.

there are fundamentals, but very few hard and fast rules other than you need the two planes of the edge to meet at the apex, how you get there is up to you and if you works for you, roll with it
 
As I can see the starter of this thread wanted to explain the sharpening basics and he also wrote the sharpening method does not matters.
I hoped I will read some other good advices regarding sharpening but all I got is a war.
 
The direction you move the stone relative to the edge. Pulling the stone only. To pushing it only. Or back and forth. Applying torque as to twist the stone gently. Pressure applied.


Circular motion as to a polish.


The difference between a hard strop and soft. No matter the micron paste.


I disagree with the assessment it's not complicated.
 
old4570 said:
Ok ! Seems like people are having issue and not understanding the fundamentals ..

A) Get yourself a marker pen so that you can see where you are removing material !
B) It matters no what method off sharpening is employed ... You have to do the basic's !

Basic 1 = Match the bevel you have ( Use that marker pen )
Basic 2 = Sharpen one side till you create a burr ( It is proof that you have reached the apex of the edge )
Basic 3 = Do the other side the same ..
Basic 4 = Refine the edge (?)
Basic 5 = Remove the burr
Click to expand...
Yes, those 5 basic steps are what most people do when successfully sharpening a knife. Reprofiling, repairing, and touching up are slightly different from basic sharpening.
Yes, those 5 basic steps are fundamentals that beginners need to understand regardless of what tools or techniques they use.
Yes, those 5 basic steps are pretty simple in this high-level overview.
It's when you look inside any of those 5 basic steps that things get complicated.
 
Guided systems are slow, cumbersome and flawed by design they don't keep the correct angle on curved blades.
 
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