On gurus and other spiritual authorities

Howard Wallace

Howard Wallace

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I just finished reading a CNN article on some people who died in a sweat lodge ceremony. Strong willed people, whose last thoughts and energies went towards trying to please their spiritual teacher and pushing themselves further into the environment that was killing them.

A while back I encountered a free pdf book on the internet going into detail on numerous spiritual authorities and their apparent abuses of power. The author covers the gamut of spiritual traditions.

My tendencies have always been towards books and the consideration of disembodied ideas far removed from the human frailties of their authors. Which is not to say that I would not have welcomed a relationship with someone with a special greater-than-everyone-elses’ connection to the infinite. I just never encountered such a one, at least to my knowledge. Not to say I haven’t run into people claiming such a status, or being quiet and ostentatiously humble while their followers claimed it for them. It’s just that when I looked into their eyes, I saw someone pretty much like myself.

Many traditions East and West advocate the teacher-follower relationship to a greater or lesser degree. In many cases judgment, possessions, decision-making-authority, and other aspects of ego are supposed to be surrendered to the spiritual authority for the spiritual advancement of the student. This happens in Christianity as well as eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. On the other hand, each of those three religions also has segments emphasizing skeptical inquiry and the exercise of individual judgment along one’s path.

Interaction with one’s peers is quite a different relationship, because individual judgment is not surrendered to them. The divinity or spark of spirit within peers can even be acknowledged, as for instance with the characteristic Nepalese greeting/salutation “Namaste.” That is a recognition of something special and divine, but not necessarily something that needs to dominate or be submitted to.

Some people have found value in the student/teacher or guru/chela relationship. I don’t mean to disparage that path.

I am interested in hearing the thoughts of others on such relationships though.
 
when you have a big ego you tend to be atracted to bigger egos. anyone who states they can save you or deliver you ect.. is speaking directly to your desires and not to you. a true teacher will never present themselves to you with a solution, they will create room around you for a solution to appear.

the people who truely benefit from a true "guru" tend to be those who are tired of all the bullshit, the ones who are at the end of the rope. its only the poeple at the bottom of the whole that know how deep it is, and thus the only ones with the true desire to climb out.

but the word "guru" is not a good choice, a guru is no one special its quite the opposite actually, a true guru is pretty unnoticeable. they dont cause drama or fights, they dont participate in anything motivated by attaining. because of that, they go pretty much unseen by the general populace. since most people are obcessed with getting to the goodness in the future the guru is overlooked because he spends his time here enjoying everything.
 
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"Spiritual authority" is, to my mind, an oxymoron; virtually every valuable, spiritual insight that I've ever had, I came to on my own.
 
I like the idea of a spiritual guide but I think it’s a paradox. Anyone with wisdom you should listen to will be the first to tell you they don’t have all the answers. Anyone who claims to have all the answers probably doesn’t. So I take my wisdom where I can find it. Master Yoda. Master Oogway. Lord Frith. And for spiritual guides that aren’t animated I feed a family of crows every day. In return they let me watch them for a while. We should all be so clever.

Frank
 
I've encountered the abdication of personnel judgement and decision making in other contexts also. a couple that come to mind:
- Psychologists, psychiatrists, and other therapy
- Wilderness survival instruction

The terminology "cult" is often used to describe the situation where followers abdicate personal judgement and decision making to a leader of their choice. I'm not sure "cult" really caputres the meaning I'm after, as it is not usually applied to large or societally accepted groups.
 
I think the dividing line (at least in nomenclature) between cult and religion/science is the number of followers. And perhaps the number of years in operation. And money, I guess. 50 guys wear funny outfits for a couple of years- cult. Hundreds/thousands of guys wear funny outfits for hundreds of years- religion. I'm still trying to figure out how scientology got recognized as a religion in the US but not Jedi.

Psychiatrists are medical doctors. Lab coats carry a lot of weight. So do snazzy pharmaceutical commercials. They also make lots of money. Psychologists, on the other hand, are only armed with Freud and tweed. That carries a lot less weight. Pills are real. Advice you could get from a bartender.

I think any time you have one person (or a small body of people) with absolute authority (or set on high by others) you run into many problems you could say are cult like. Here on the boards I've seen people defend certain brands of gear with zealous devotion. Much the same way people defend political parties. Or Ford/Chevy. Or sports teams.

The (noun) you hold dear is inferior to the (noun) I hold dear. You are inferior to me. I will kill you over our minor differences. Unless you agree to believe what I tell you. In which case we are now brothers.

Huh?

Frank
 
peter r said:
when you have a big ego you tend to be atracted to bigger egos. anyone who states they can save you or deliver you ect.. is speaking directly to your desires and not to you. a true teacher will never present themselves to you with a solution, they will create room around you for a solution to appear.
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A true teacher will create room around you for a solution to appear. A book about the American Indians first coming into the Americas said "God made the world, go and see it."

Whatever level of reality you want to learn about, some friend can help, they've been there, you know them and can trust them. Going to strangers is like buying a sandwich at Subway instead of making a sandwich for yourself. Sometimes it's just more available, but eventually, you need to fix your own food.

Have some great souls already set a good example? That seems to be true. But they did so in terms of their own needs, their own culture, their own times. After we read about them, we still need to ask what that can mean to us. Be here now.
 
Howard Wallace said:
I've encountered the abdication of personnel judgement and decision making in other contexts also. a couple that come to mind:
- Psychologists, psychiatrists, and other therapy
- Wilderness survival instruction

The terminology "cult" is often used to describe the situation where followers abdicate personal judgement and decision making to a leader of their choice. I'm not sure "cult" really caputres the meaning I'm after, as it is not usually applied to large or societally accepted groups.
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That's a good synopsis of the pathology Howard: "The abdication of personal judgment and decision making."

Maybe in one form or another, it's a bit of laziness as well? It's just so much easier to sign on to another person's world and spiritual view, especially when they seem so sure of themselves and seem to have all the answers.

And if you are committed to following them, then they by definition they _can't_ be as lost as you, can they? They must have some superior insight, hence you put them on a pedestal and call them "guru". (And perhaps hand over all your money, your wife, your life, etc.)

I've always been convinced that most of the people with true spiritual insight have no desire whatsoever to be held up in high esteem, or to be responsible for leading others down their perceived "path of righteousness."

BTW, I have also seen this in other contexts as well. Firearms instruction comes to mind.

Thanks for a thought provoking post.

Norm
 
Listen to everyone at least once, use what you can, and discard the rest. More "tools" in your "toolbox" are never a bad thing.

"evey man is a teacher and oracle to somone". Anyone recognize the qoute?
 
I've always wondered about cults and why people get mixed up in them. At first I thought they were just weak people who were easily manipulated. As I've aged I have started to feel that maybe it's a combination of upbringing, personality traits, and luck. I've always thought I was too smart to get mixed up in anything like that but maybe I've just been lucky. I don't know. It's a really interesting question.
 
Gurus and such

After a wild, hard, strange, cruel, decadent and hatful life I ended up in the gutter at 26 and from there I have been on a journey at first I just called out to whatever (for lack of a better word at the time “God” that might be listening); read a lot; studied a lot; climbed mountains to talk with old wise men; crossed a frozen lake to sit in a sweat lodge with Mayan elders – but most of all I spend most of my time helping others.

I started a path of servitude to humanity; animals as well; over 18 years ago. Along the way I have met many true, sincere and honest practitioners of various faiths.

I can see where it could be easy to fall prey to quacks as there is an over abundance of the type mentioned already.

I have always been leery of anyone “claiming” anything.
For quite a few years when it comes to the spirit path, I have only been concerned with truth.

The Upanishads says; “Falsehood turns from the way; truth goes all the way; the end of the way is truth; the way is paved with truth. The sage travels there without desire.”

A fraud is a fraud and easy to see – true colors always come through sooner or later.

the word Guru has been miss used for so long because many with the title abuse it (several here have pointed out the ways that happens)

The word originally just meant a teacher.

now days my Dogs are my greatest teachers.

Eric
 
BFH44 said:
...I can see where it could be easy to fall prey to quacks ...
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I wonder if designating some as quacks and some as the real thing might be too simplistic. For instance, some authors whose writings I've found to be insightful and helpful are written about in the book I linked in the first post. Various personal foibles are claimed for each of them, most involving the abuse of other people. I would hesitate to call these people quacks due to the insights they have had and shared, but I would also hesitate to throw myself at their feet and do whatever they said.

BFH44 said:
...now days my Dogs are my greatest teachers.
Click to expand...

:)
 
I only more people treated their kids the way our dogs treat us, we wouldn't need so much "help".
 
BFH44 said:
now days my Dogs are my greatest teachers.

Eric
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You and me both brother!:thumbup:

From my late Border Collie Becky's fight with Diabetes and associated blindness I learnt acceptance without self pity nor complaint, determination to transcend and continue living without anger at the new hurdles she encountered, both figurative and literal. And to retain a happy and sweet disposition until the day her battle ended.

In the daily life of my dog blu I see true joy when visited by friends, human and canine alike, contentment with what he has and the hope that something new is going to be exciting rather fearful.

And lots of kisses and hugs as well as nice meaty bones!;);)

bruce
 
Not to mention their unconditional love that seemingly comes no matter what gets dished out to them. Fortunately I'm learning from them, unfortunately much of it has been in retrospect. How intelligent I felt I was only to be shown by my dogs how far behind I had truly been and how blessed I truly was.
 
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