Oninions on binoculars wanted. Specifically, different sizes and quality. Zeiss?

J

J. MacDonald

Joined
Jun 8, 2000
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3,140
A bad thing happened today. It's raining like hell here in generally sunny So. Cal.. This caused me to spend the morning here on BFC (like that never happens on saturdays). I caught L6's post about the deal on binocs. I've always wanted a nice pair of binoculars. I own a couple pairs of Bushnells; a little 8x21 and a pair that's pretty cool and very small, and a pair of Bushnell Banner 7-15x35mms that I bought at Big 5 probably 15 eyars ago. Seeing his post made me drag out my old Banners. Just like always, they sucked! I think there's something wrong with them and am sending them in for repair (again), but from what I learned today, I'm pretty sure that when they return, they'll either get passed down to our boy or if he doesn't want them, they'll go on ebay.

After poking around the web all morning and looking at all the best binoculars I thought I needed in the under $200.00 range (my top end, impulse buy limit at the moment) I had decided on a pair of Minolta 8-22x50 Zoom model for about $165.00. I thought those would probably be the binocs that I could buy and own forever. They'd be fine for birdwatching, racing, general hiking and the like.

But while I was out running errands, I stopped in at Big five to see what they had. They had a pair of Barska 8-20x80s that were pretty huge and it was apparent after a second's use that you would need a tripod to use the higher magnifications. They were on sale for only $99.00 and seemed like a good deal, but were too big for me. The salesman told me that Bushnell was their top line, so that was the end of Big 5 for this trip.

I then made the mistake of dropping in on a Scope City store that happens to be less than two miles from home. Here's when things took a turn for the worse. I met a salesman who doesn't work on comission, but has been in the optics business a long time and really seems to know his stuff. I should comment here to note that I have worked in the retail world selling high end stuff for 20 years and can tell when i'm working with a real pro. The guy really knew his products. There were very few customers on this rainy afternoon, so he took the time to let me try about 20 pair of binoculars. I leaned a lot of things, like the first number is the magnification and the second number is the size of the objective lens (ie: a 7x50 binocular has a 7x magnification and a 50 mm objective lense which affects brightness). I also learned that Zooming binoculars employee so many compromises that I could no longer consider a set with zoom.

I tried everything in size from a 7x50 Parks to an 8x40 Brunston Lite Tech (mid sized) and then up to a Meade Forest Pro 8x56 (pretty huge!).

I kept saying, "ok, what if I go up just a little more?". I'm not sure why I persist with a stupid line of questioning like that, but I seem to be driven to do so.

It seems that a 7x50 is probably the most bang for the buck as far as an overall bright, clear picture is concerned at any given price point, and a pretty good pair can be had in the $300.00 neighborhood. As you shrink the objective lens (the big one), the whole package becomes smaller, but the brightness of the image suffers. I also found I prefer at least an 8x in magnification, and preferably 10x although much over that is really hard to use without a tripod (handshake makes the picture blurry). Unfortunately, like shrinking the objective lens, increasing the magnification causes further dimming giving you a double whammy in a midsixe or smaller package.

I found all the 7x50s to be a bit large to consider hiking with, or comfortably carrying to a race. The sub 40mm objective lens class loses so much brightness that I immediately eliminated that catagory from consideration. That left the 8x40 and 10x40s to consider.

I had sort of zero'd in on a 10x40 Brunton waterproof model with integral dust caps at around $400.00 which seems like a really great pair of binocs, but then I asked the stupid question again. What else do you have?

So the guy shows me a Zeiss 10x40 Classic that is being discontinued and offered at a remarkable closeout price of only $750.00. I had determined that brands like Steiner, Zeiss and Swarovski were off my list before leaving the house! These were originally around $1300.00!

I never thought I'd hold a $1300.00 pair of binoculars in my life, I wans't even sure such stuff really existed! Man were they sweet. They seemed to have the brightness of a decent 7x50 with higher magnification in a water/fog proof package thats about 40% smaller than a 7x50, with a level of clarity that nothing else I had looked through could touch!

I also loked at the model that is replacing the Classic Zeiss 10x40s (the Victory) and in my opinion, the optics are the same quality, but the rest of the package sucks comparitively speaking (complete new industrial design) and they are even more money than the closeouts.

So I guess there's really two questions:

#1 For a general purpose binoculars that will be used at the shooting range, on nature walks, at car and motorcycle races and for other general observing, is a 10x40 a good compromise or should I really go to a 10x50 and put up with the extra bulk.

#2 Is Zeiss worth the money? Is this really a purchase that will last me the rest of my life and be passed on to my step son?

Luckily, my wedding anniversary is coming up at the end of the month and Christmas is close on it's heels, so the wife has agreed to look at this as my anniversary present (besides, I run the household budget, but in the interest if fairness, when it approaches a grand in expenditure, I bring it up for discussion).

What would you do? (sorry for the long post)

jmx
 
It looks like you try to buy the best thing you can "afford" (term used loosely here ;)) and certainly w/ optics the most important thing is how comfortable you are. After being comfortable comes all of the features and how well they will hold up to accidental drops, changing temperatures, water-resistance, etc.

I'll let others w/ more binocular experience pipe in w/ reviews or other brand recommendations, but do remember that if you spend $750 on precision glass that dangles from your neck, you should be willing to take it everwhere you want to.

Will you think twice about taking these some places? If so, perhaps you'd be better off w/ less than extraordinary binoculars that you'd feel comfortable using everywhere. Otherwise you'll be stuck w/ the exact binoculars you're trying to move up from...
 
The big issue with buying a really good looking 7x50 was that it is too big for me to think about carrying nearly everywhere (at least everywhere my leisure time takes me).

Portability is a key ingredient in my decision making process. I'm only considering this level of glass because it seems like you can get the brightness of a full size binoc in a mid sized package, backed up by a world class warranty.

jmx
 
I use binoculars often. I would go with something in an 8X40. This is the best muti-use glass I've found. Mine are Swift Ultra-lites 8X42. Super clear and a great close focus.

Paul
 
I purchased a pair of Kahles 8x42 binoculars from SWFA (riflescopes.com)about 1 year ago. Kahles is a subsidiary of Swarovski. They have been in all weather conditions. I live in the SoCal desert environment but have family in New England that I visit. They were $600. at that time and worth every cent.

Good Luck

JNC
 
jmxcpter,

There is an old saying about binos that rings absolutely true, "GOOD binos cost nothing and weigh less."

I have owned a bunch and wasted a lot of money trying to find a bargin -- you get what you pay for and this is particuarly true with optics.

After 30 years of hunting and draging binos all over the world in military service, I would STRONGLY urge you to buy quality and cry once. It will be a lifetime purchase that you will be glad you did not half step on.

That said you do not have to spend mega dollars - there are bargins to be had. You mentioned Zeiss. This is what I have ended up with. I owned Swarovski, I think the Zeiss are better. Cabelas has a great deal on new Zeiss "Classics" - $699 with free shipping. You can not beat that price - ANYWHERE. They have 8X30 & 8X40. If you are going to spend a lot of time walking/hunting with the binos hanging off your neck, which is where they should be, go with the 8X30. This is a great compromise in objective size and brightness - they are plenty bright. If the binos will spend most of their time on a bench or riding on the seat of the truck go 8X40. The extra weight may not sound like much, but at the end of a long day you will find the 8X30s MUCH more comfortable to carry. If your binos are heavy (ie, they feel heavy around your neck), you will have a tendency to put them in your pack where they will not be handy. I would suggest you stay away from 10X until you go to a minimum of a 50mm objective. The 10X in smaller objectives will appear "unsteady" and will give you a headache rapidly if you spend any significant time glassing.

Back to the Classics. I have tried to destroy my 8X30 Zeiss Classics and it is damn near impossible - plus if I do they fix them for FREE, except for the cost of shipping. Think of the extra cost as paying for an insurance policy up front, that should ease the pain a little.

Last, checkout http://www.samplelist.com/ They have reconditioned and dealer demos at signifcant discounts. I have bought several high end scopes from them and my binos, they are good people to deal with and will be very happy to talk with you about optics.

My advice -- for what it is worth -- buy the Zeiss and be done with it.

Semper Fi
Tuna
 
Thanks for the input. With knives I'm inclined to own as many as I can that meet my standards. With Optics, I kind of want to just own one good pair.

I've spent all weekend on this and have learned a few things. I want a roof prism design not a porro prism design. The Zeiss Classic 10x40 seems to be the greatest deal in a top end pair of binocs. The competitors, (Leica Trinovid, Nikon Venturer LS and Swarovski SLC) in the same size are a lot more money ($300.00 to $750.00 extra) than the Zeiss Classics. I also compared the Zeiss Classics with their new Victory glasses in the same magnification and while the Victorys are lighter, they don't seem as refined, even if they do have a few more modern features (like pop up eye cups).

I think I want a 10X set of binocs as a lot of my useage will be to look at airplanes overhead (we're on the glide path of a hobby airport where a lot of historic planes fly to and from). I realize that this means I'm giving up a little brightness and field of vision. When I tried them out, the Zeiss classics just sort of felt comfortable, like a good pair of shoes.

I'm not willing to spend what a top set of Leicas,Nikons or Swarovskis are worth and it looks like the Zeiss Classics are fading away as tehy seem to be discontinued.

My only reservation is about the eye cups. Are the newer design pop up eye cups really that much better than the old style fold down eye cups?

jmx

PS: I also found a really cool pair of 8x56mm Meade Forestmaster Pros for about $400.00 that would be less portable, but offer an incredibly bright picture. They're kind of big, but very cool.
 
jmx,
I don't know if the salesman from Scope City mentioned it or not, but there's an easy formula you should know when shopping for a pair of binoculars. By taking the objective lens diameter and dividing this number by the magnification you will be left with the diameter of the beam of light that exits from the ocular lens (the small lens closest to your eye). For example, a pair of 7x35 binos will produce an image in the ocular lens that's 5mm in diameter. Likewise, a pair of 7x50 binos will produce an ocular lens image that's a hair over 7mm in diameter.

This ocular lens image measurement is important for two primary reasons. First, it gives you a general idea of how well the binos will perform in varying light conditions. The eye of the average 30 year old human has an iris that contracts down to about 2 or 3mm in bright light conditions, and opens up to approximately 7mm in low light or darkness. Ergo, a pair of 8x30 binos with its ocular lens image diameter of just under 4mm will provide more light than your eye could possibly use under daylight conditions (because your eye is effectively open to only 2mm). At night, however, your eye (which is now opened up to 7mm) would be able to benefit from a good deal more light than the 8x30 binos are capable of delivering. This helps explain why 7x50's are so often recommended to boaters and hunters and other folks who often use their binos in low light conditions.

The second reason this calculation is important is because it also gives you an idea of just how precisely your eye will have to be aligned with the ocular lens in order for you to receive the optimal image. Even in full daylight conditions a pair of compact 10x20 binos would have to be perfectly aligned with your eye in order for you to view the full available image (i.e. a 2mm image lining up with a 2mm iris). Trying to maintain this perfect alignment can be difficult (especially when glassing for extended periods of time) and will dramatically contribute to eye strain and fatigue. The 7x50 binos, on the other hand, produce an ocular lens image many times larger than that which your eye could use in daylight (7mm vs. 2mm, respectively), so eye alignment is far less critical. As a result, you can glass with a good pair of 7x50's all morning long without ever getting a headache.

It sounds like you have a good handle on all the other compromises that must be taken into consideration when choosing a pair of binos, so I just wanted to add this one little bit. Good luck, and FWIW, I think the Zeiss Classics (in whatever size and magnification configuration you find most appropriate) would serve you well for many, many years.
 
You might want to check on Valdada binoculars at valdada.com. Very good glass, extremely rugged, and not outrageously expensive. Also, if you decide to go for one of the big names, be sure to check ebay for deals. A few months ago, I got a pair of Swarovski 8x20 pocket binoculars in perfect condition for $310. I use these much more often than my full-size binos, since they're so easy to carry around.
 
I've made do with cheapos for a few years. My tasco 12*25's have suited me fine. Generally the light is very bright where I am so low light performance isn't an issue. However my neighbour showed me his 8*50's one day. They are 40 years old and where very expensive when he bought them. I can't remember the brand but he used them for hunting big game in Africa (get this - he was Idi Amin's helicopter pilot for a while - the dude has some amazing stories)I was amazed at the difference in clarity and they worked in low light as if they has some sort of image enhancer. I made a mental note to get some high end binocs after that.

To help you justify the expense JMX - of all the gadjets I've taken on my travels, cameras and the such. I think a pair of binocs has done the most to enhance the experience. It may be something as simple as watching a nepalese elephant driver feeding and cleaning his animal - from a distance, without intruding that lends great intimacy to the experience. As well as the obvious benefits when observing fauna. A good pair of binocs are also like knives, something you can pass on.
 
JMX,

1) Scrape up every penny you can possibly beg, borrow or steal, then find an extra $100.

2) Buy one of the big-name brands: (in alphabetical order) Leica, Swarovski or Zeiss.

3) Never buy zoom binoculars.

4) Stay with a 7- or 8-power glass.

5) If size isn't an issue, buy 7 x 50.

6) If size is a *major* issue, buy 8 x 21.

7) Howl once, then enjoy for the rest of your life.

A good shop will have a resolution card which you can use to test the resolving power of various binoculars. If not, borrow a copy of Plaster's "The Ultimate Sniper", copy the one printed in there, then take the copy to the shop. Ask to have the various glasses set up on a tripod and view the target at the maximum available range. Try cheapo glasses too. Prepare to be shocked....

PS: I run Zeiss 7 x 50s and Leica 8 x 21s.

maximus otter
 
It seems that for top performance in handheld optics the front runners are Leica, Swarovski, Zeiss and Nikon.

The Nikon Explorer LX, Leica Trinovid, Zeiss Victory and Swarovski SLC 10x40/42 offerings go from $1000.00 to $1400.00 /pair (street pricing). The Leicas and Zeiss are the bargains at around 1K and the Swarovskis & Nikons stretch the top price limits in this size class at around $1400.00 each. All models have fantastic optics and are water proof, nitrogen purged with phase corrected roof prisms. From my research, these glasses are cream of the crop. Durable, sharp optics in a comfortable package. They should last two lifetimes.

Generally below the exotic price range of these top models, the next step is a bunch of $400.00- $500.00 models like the Brunton Eterna, the Bausch & Lomb Elites and the Pentax DCF-WP series. These glasses seem to offer tremendous performance nearing the best stuff around (especially the Pentax 10x42 DCF WP) and can be had at a serious savings as compared to the top shelf stuff. Currently you can get a pair of the Pentax DCF-WP 10x42s for about $400.00 and get a $100.00 rebate (ends 12/31/2002), netting you down to about $300.00 for a really world class set of roof prism, waterproof binocs. This set is very tempting to me at this point and especially with the rebate, it is the best buy in the binoc market at the moment (IMHO).

Splitting the difference between the best value (most bang for the buck) Pentax DFC WP model and the top end, no compromise models (Leica Trinovid, Swarovski SLC/EL, Nikon Explorer LX and Zeiss Victory) is the Zeiss Classic 10x40.

From what I have learned it seems that the Zeiss Classic is the same old Zeiss 10x40 that has been made for decades and was discontinued when the newer Victory model was introduced. I can say that I've held and looked through both models and while the Victory has screw up(?) eye cups and are apparently more armoured, I prefered the Classics.

The cool news is that the Zeiss Classic seems to have been re-introduced at a new, lower price point, sort of splitting the difference between the mid-range like a Pentax DCF and the exotics listed above. The Classics seem to be selling for about $700.00 online at authorized dealers.

This means that you can get into a world class set of glasses like the Zeiss Classic 10x40 for around $700.00 as opposed to the $1400.00 street price for a competitive Swarovski or Nikon instrument. The Leica Trinovid comes closest in price at around $1000.00 but is still 30% more than the Zeiss Classic at the new, re-introduction pricing.

To me this means that if I really stretch, I might buy a binoc that will last me a lifetime (Zeiss Classic) as opposed to a great set of midline glasses, (get a great deal on a set of the Pentax glasses and hope they go the distance).

I'm finding that the Pentax DCF WP 10x42s are backordered everywhere. The Zeiss Classic seems to be an unbeatable deal at current pricing ($689.00 @ www.eagleoptics.com). Am I nuts?

What would you do?

jmx
 
jmxcpter,

10x is the *absolute maximum* I would go for. I maintain that 99% of the public - me included - would be happier in the long run with 7x or 8x. I think you will find the extra "wobble" incurred by the additional magnification will frustrate you in the long run.

As with so many aspects of life, bigger is not automatically better.

Having said that, the Zeiss glasses will be a delight for you, your kids and their kids.

Enjoy.

maximus otter
 
jmxcpter, Maximus Otter is right on track with both of his posts.

Think of it this way -- It is a lifetime purchase. Factor the extra cost out per year and it is of little econmic benefit to buy the cheaper binos. Save yourself all the contemplation and buy the Zeiss - you will be glad you did.

In addition to my 8X30 Classics, I have a pair of 30 year old Zeiss 10X50 that a Russian officer gave to me as a gift. They are as good today as when they were new. They show some honest wear on the outside from use on the "Western Frontier", but they are better than any of the new Japanese or Chinese optics you will find today. EVERYONE who looks through them can't believe the glasses are from the early 70's. They are still fog proff, water proof and nitrogen sealed, just like new except for some exterior wear. That is because Zeiss makes the best optics in the world - period. The $700 dollar price point for the Classic's is a true bargin. Buy them and be done with it.

Semper Fi
Tuna out
 
Just my .02 on binoculars and optical quality. I have some of the compact Leica 10x binos (10x25?) and the fancy Steiner 7x50 M-22 miltary binocs. Between these "higher end" binos, the Leica optics are obviously superior.

The rub is this, though -- if you are a normal joe like me, and if you aren't comparing the binocs directly, either one will be GREAT, compared to department store models. It's only when you look at one and then the other that you see the differences. In addition, although the Leica 10x binos are better, I tend to use the 7x50's more, because of the improvement in field of view, and the fact that the 7x binos are easier to hold steady -- and I'm a spry 30 year-old guy -- I don't have the shakes yet!

Hope this helps!
:p

Raj
 
I thought I'd follow up for jmxpcter on my binocs purchase, the trigger for which was reading this thread a week or so back. I too thought I'd like a top end pair and didn't know where to start. The aussie dollar makes it a bit tough when buying top range imported stuff, for example the Ziess and Liecias are around $3000.

This wouldn't normally stop me, but my last deal is far enough behind me and the maturation of my next one is far enough in front for the thought of spending this much on a new toy too painfull. I compared the Nikons, Pentax 10x42 DCF WP (Highly recommended by jmxpcter) Vixen(recommended by the dude in the binocs shop I visited) and the Tasco EXP's. The pentax where $AUS 1500. The Turrets $650 and the Tascos $750.

The Tascos just felt better. I was a bit leery of them at first because Tascos are the cheap brand over here. I have had a pair of their compacts and they performed fine, but I wanted to step up. The EXP's are among their top end lines.

The EXP's are coated optics, roof prism, nitrogen sealed, water proof etc. They are extremely bright. I was watching a pair of dolphins play (actually they where probably fighting for their lives being chased by a shark, but they look cute jumping out of the water)about 30 minutes after sunset yesterday and the image was very clear.

So the technical performance is adequate for the $ I wanted to spend. Most imprtantly they are the most comfortable (for me) by far. They fit my eye sockets perfectly. Alternatively I can leave my glasses on and pop the eyecups in for no loss of image size or viewability (something that was lacking on others I tried.

They are also on the compact side which is good because I will be using them on foot mainly.

This is them.
http://www.tasco.com/productlist.asp?familylineID=62&producttypeID=2&producttypeNAME=BINOCULARS

They have good servicing locally and a lifetime waranty. So there you have it. Choice made.
 
I still haven't bought glasses. I bought a new pistol instead. I still want a good pair of glasses and my junk Bushnells are at the factory as I write this.

I also found the Pentaxs to be a little clunky (you inferred). If they weren't a little clunky, I'd probably own them by now, the optics are so good. That's where the Zeiss Classic shine to me. It's a more user friendly package and it might just have a little better optics (but not much). I can't decide.

I put both on my Xmas list and gave it to my wife. If she thinks I'm worth either of them I'll be a lucky guy and won't have to wrestle with the decision anymore!

jmx
 
ahh thank you. Your support is very welcome as I negotiate the first few days of post buyers guilt. Actually I found out that I paid a tad too much for these but suprisingly this hasn't dampened my enthusism for them. Just for the puss at that binocs shop.

I just got back from a week in the Kimberley region of West Oz, which is right in the tropics. That line from Michael Herr's Dispatches about SE Asia putting it's hot mouth all over him comes to mind. The week started sticky and humid, then on Thursday someone put the heater on - very hot. I was jumping in and out of airconditioned vehicles all day and getting in and out of non AC'd choppers. The glasses didn't fog slightly in what was an extreme test for this. They where great for spotting wildlife around the water holes at sunset. The country is all red rock, dark green foilage and Boab trees so the wallabies and birds are very well camoflaged. Having some nice glass is a joy.
 
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